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Dawn Wall
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By USBRIT
From Cumbria.UK
Oct 21, 2012
First ascent. The Sword of Damocles... a real beauty. P. Ross on the summit. Palisade and I-70 below.

Dawn Wall. Been watchinga TV program where climbers were attempting to free climb Dawn Wall on El Cap. Maybe I am old fasioned but reducing a three thousand foot climb to sport pitches with draws already placed ahead of the attempt(regardless of difficulty ) seems not quite Kosher if you know what I mean ... What do you think ?


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By ClimberRunner
From Redmond, WA
Oct 21, 2012

Their goal is to redpoint each pitch, in order, bottom to top in one ascent, and thereby free the route.


It's widely accepted that having a biner or draw on a piece of fixed pro is: A. easier B. Fair game for freeclimbing/redpointing pitches.

Hence they are putting draws on the fixed pro, and spending time on the hardest moves.

They are also placing any non-fixed gear on lead attempts.

And that's what makes sense for a possible FFA of any difficulty: to accomplish it in the most efficient way possible. (which in this case, may be the ONLY way possible, or it may still not be possible)

Would it be more impressive for someone to send that route going ground-up? Definitely.

Would it be more impressive for someone to send that route in bowling shoes? Definitely.

Both would be amazing accomplishments, neither is going to be how such routes get freed.


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By Austin Baird
From SLC, Utah
Oct 21, 2012
Me scaring years off my mom's life

I think Tommy Caldwell has proven himself as more than just a pink-pointing sport climber. Watching someone free-climb that many pitches of 5.13 and 5.14 up El Cap is pretty inspiring, preplaced draws or not.


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By michaeltarne
Oct 21, 2012

I'll reserve my style judgements for when I can actually do the route in a better style than him. TC is as good at free climbing in the valley as anyone is, I don't see any problems.


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By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Oct 21, 2012

USBRIT wrote:
Dawn Wall. Been watchinga TV program where climbers were attempting to free climb Dawn Wall on El Cap. Maybe I am old fasioned but reducing a three thousand foot climb to sport pitches with draws already placed ahead of the attempt(regardless of difficulty ) seems not quite Kosher if you know what I mean ... What do you think ?


I dont know if i'd call anything they're doing on El Cap a 'sport' pitch. Multiple 5.13 pitches protected by copperheads and marginal rp's seem to be the standard for that climb. They are being very careful to not place extra bolts on the aid line or otherwise decrease the challenge of the route for aid climbers.


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By USBRIT
From Cumbria.UK
Oct 21, 2012
First ascent. The Sword of Damocles... a real beauty. P. Ross on the summit. Palisade and I-70 below.

If I remember when they freed Muir wall in 2001 photos showed pre place cams . Does this mean that second ascents have to rap the climb to preplace protection or do they aid it first? Does it mention somewhere on the decription of the free ascent about preplaced pro?. As you say good effort but.....


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By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Oct 22, 2012

So far as I am aware, when Tommy and co. have gone on their redpoint attempts, they are placing gear on lead. If they fall, they lower back to belay and go again. I dont know if they pull the gear or not.


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By bearbreeder
Oct 22, 2012

gotta love it when someone who cant climb anyone near that level complain about the "ethics" of people who go out there and do it ...

perhaps people can get on that wall and show mr Caldwell, Jorgeson and Siegrist how to REALLY climb

;)


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By Benjamin Chapman
From Small Town, USA
Oct 22, 2012
old 1/4" bolt.

Bearbreeder......ethics are ethics regardless of your ability. Ground up, red point, yo-yo, trad or sport, it's the same standard for everyone. Elite climbers don't shat any more or less than the rest of us. What Tommy Caldwell and crew are doing is inspirational and impressive, but don't try to sell us that their ascent of the Dawn Wall should be judged by different standard because of their abilities. You may not like USBRIT's tone, but THERE ARE NO DOUBLE STANDARDS BASED ON ABILITY! Even armchair climbers have 1st Amendment rights and the right to complain, just like you, me and elite climbers.


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By camhead
From Vandalia, Appalachia
Oct 22, 2012
You stay away from mah pig!

USBRIT wrote:
Dawn Wall. Been watchinga TV program where climbers were attempting to free climb Dawn Wall on El Cap. Maybe I am old fasioned but reducing a three thousand foot climb to sport pitches with draws already placed ahead of the attempt(regardless of difficulty ) seems not quite Kosher if you know what I mean ... What do you think ?



yawn.


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By Nick Zmyewski
From Newark, Delaware
Oct 22, 2012
the frozen topout during a winter ascent

Benjamin Chapman wrote:
Bearbreeder......ethics are ethics regardless of your ability. Ground up, red point, yo-yo, trad or sport, it's the same standard for everyone. Elite climbers don't shat any more or less than the rest of us. What Tommy Caldwell and crew are doing is inspirational and impressive, but don't try to sell us that their ascent of the Dawn Wall should be judged by different standard because of their abilities. You may not like USBRIT's tone, but THERE ARE NO DOUBLE STANDARDS BASED ON ABILITY! Even armchair climbers have 1st Amendment rights and the right to complain, just like you, me and elite climbers.


Because bearbreeder was questioning usbrit's 1st amendment right?


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By Nick Stayner
From The Magic City
Oct 22, 2012
Nick Stayner near the crux. Ryan Minton photo.

USBRIT wrote:
Dawn Wall. Been watchinga TV program where climbers were attempting to free climb Dawn Wall on El Cap. Maybe I am old fasioned but reducing a three thousand foot climb to sport pitches with draws already placed ahead of the attempt(regardless of difficulty ) seems not quite Kosher if you know what I mean ... What do you think ?


I think you should go out there and one-up Tommy on style! Good luck with that... then maybe your opinion could hold some water.


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By Scott O
From California
Oct 22, 2012
Batman Pinnacle

Benjamin Chapman wrote:
Bearbreeder......ethics are ethics regardless of your ability. Ground up, red point, yo-yo, trad or sport, it's the same standard for everyone. Elite climbers don't shat any more or less than the rest of us. What Tommy Caldwell and crew are doing is inspirational and impressive, but don't try to sell us that their ascent of the Dawn Wall should be judged by different standard because of their abilities. You may not like USBRIT's tone, but THERE ARE NO DOUBLE STANDARDS BASED ON ABILITY! Even armchair climbers have 1st Amendment rights and the right to complain, just like you, me and elite climbers.


Agreed, which is why I'm way more impressed by the guy who did it ground up on the first try!

Wait... that's nobody?

Tommy's ascent is incredibly impressive and a huge leap forward no matter how he does it. When someone from the next generation comes along and onsites it, that will be even more impressive, but we're nowhere near that level yet. Let's just applaud and encourage Tommy Caldwell for the huge leap forward he's trying to take.

Bottom line: If you're open about the style you use and not altering the route, then who cares how you climb something?


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By Perin Blanchard
Administrator
From Orem, UT
Oct 22, 2012
Racking too much gear, as usual.

I think I may give USBRIT's opinion a bit more weight than those of some of the rest of us.


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By J Q
Oct 22, 2012
Me again!

Perin Blanchard wrote:
I think I may give USBRIT's opinion a bit more weight than those of some of the rest of us.



Seriously? Then let's see him show us what good style is instead of whining about it on the internet and starting a flame war. Actions always speak louder than words.

And no, you can't just assume that because you have mastered one part of climbing your experience transfers to another. If you have never climbed a 5.14 you don't know what it means to climb 5.14. If you have only climbed 5.14 sport and go to the black your gonna die. Climbing ethics are worse than bad porn, they work in all different sorts of ways, everyone has a different preference, and climbing is just a very vague term to say you like to suffer on rock.

He is basically saying that his way of suffering is the correct way and that is the very definition of egocentric behavior. The only real question is: How exactly do you prefer to suffer, and does your way of suffering really impede others ability to suffer how they want to?


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By Boissal
From Small Lake, UT
Oct 22, 2012

Jonhy Q wrote:
Then let's see him show us what good style is instead of whining about it on the internet and starting a flame war

Anyone who has visited the Swell and climbed some of his routes there has a pair of stained underwear that makes a solid testimony to his understanding of good style...


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By Paul Hunnicutt
From Boulder, CO
Oct 22, 2012
Half Dome

TC and company are climbing multiple 5.13 and 5.14 pitches on El Cap...seriously you really think this would have happened without sport climbing and alternate techniques from ground up and placing every draw. Be realistic. If someone comes along 50 years from now and onsights the Dawn Wall ground up, placing all gear, believe me they will have years of sport climbing, advanced equipment under their belts to have achieved such a level. TC has already climbed more hard trad on El Cap than anyone. Sorry ground up isn't going to get 5.14+ done on El Cap. Most, if not all the "easy" routes on El Cap are done. In fact it might not be even possible to bolt these pitches from hooks and marginal stances...not to mention test the moves and sequences. This climbing is so hard without inspection on rappel it might not be possible and you might be bolting into a wasteland, never to be climbed.

Fine to celebrate ground up ascents, place all the gear ascents...just not the only way to climb. How many 5.14, 5.14+ ground up ascents are there? Any?


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By Jon Zucco
From Denver, CO
Oct 22, 2012
yaak crack Red Rock Canyon, NV

Even Lynn Hill pre-hung draws on pre-placed pro in order to free climb the nose in one push. So what? Big deal. This in no way diminishes the value of her achievement: free climbing something that had previously only ever been aided.

I want to furthermore this by sayin'; Lynn Hill is dreamy. She put the houdini corner thing (changing corners) at 5.13b, a pitch that was later conceded to be 5.14a/b. sigh... dreamy.


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By J Q
Oct 22, 2012
Me again!

Boissal wrote:
Anyone who has visited the Swell and climbed some of his routes there has a pair of stained underwear that makes a solid testimony to his understanding of good style...



Or more likely, it has become your understanding of good style. I am not saying that his style of suffering isn't legit, he seems to love it, and good on him, I am just saying that . . . it is not the only style.

Is this really a hard to concept to understand? It's not science. It's climbing. Just like porn, everyone has a different preference. You like to shit in your pants, but some people think that's not so cool. Fecal porn is a huge hit but it is not the only porn. Your possible love of fecal porn does not interfere with my ability to appreciate other porn, so why should I begin ranting about it on the internet? Oh, I see, to make you feel bad that your choices aren't my own.

Like I said: ego-centric behavior.


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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Oct 22, 2012
modern man

Jon Zucco wrote:
Even Lynn Hill pre-hung draws on pre-placed pro in order to free climb the nose in one push. So what? Big deal. This in no way diminishes the value on her achievement: free climbing something that had previously only ever been aided. I want to furthermore this by sayin'; Lynn Hill is dreamy. She put the houdini corner thing at 5.13, a pitch that was later conceded to be 5.14a/b. sigh... dreamy.


ratings for men and women are vastly different on cracks. If only I could hand jam in a .75 crack...


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By J Q
Oct 22, 2012
Me again!

fair weather climber wrote:
ratings for men and women are vastly different on cracks. If only I could hand jam in a .75 crack...



Now that is a good troll!


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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Oct 22, 2012
Colonel Mustard

Jonhy Q wrote:
Now that is a good troll!


You're right about that. Complaining hand size is the last defense of the true whiner. Right after height issues. Or weight.


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By Boissal
From Small Lake, UT
Oct 22, 2012

Jonhy Q wrote:
Something about dipping my dong in feces

I can't recall stating my opinion about the Dawn Wall... All I said is that USBrit has good style. It doesn't mean I consider pre-clipped draws on 5.14+R on big walls as a pussification of the sport. I don't.
I'm not sure what made you feel like you needed to ride your fecal-analogy horse to fight the windmills here.


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By Jon Zucco
From Denver, CO
Oct 22, 2012
yaak crack Red Rock Canyon, NV

Boissal wrote:
I'm not sure what made you feel like you needed to ride your fecal-analogy horse to fight the windmills here.


this is superb imagery.


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By Kenan
Oct 22, 2012
Shelf Rd

Jonhy Q wrote:
Or more likely, it has become your understanding of good style. I am not saying that his style of suffering isn't legit, he seems to love it, and good on him, I am just saying that . . . it is not the only style. Is this really a hard to concept to understand? It's not science. It's climbing. Just like porn, everyone has a different preference. You like to shit in your pants, but some people think that's not so cool. Fecal porn is a huge hit but it is not the only porn. Your possible love of fecal porn does not interfere with my ability to appreciate other porn, so why should I begin ranting about it on the internet? Oh, I see, to make you feel bad that your choices aren't my own. Like I said: ego-centric behavior.


Oh, wow! HAHA this is priceless!!! I LOL'ed for many minutes


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By Zappatista
Oct 22, 2012
Book me, officer.

The discussion here is valid, the passing judgement is the chunky spoiled milk in the back of the refrigerator.

"The only universal constant is human stupidity" -Frank Zappa

How much more valuable would the time spent pondering these issues be if each of us posting here put it towards showing love to someone we cared about, or even getting a few pullups or a run in?

Really conceptualizing the magnitude of what's happening up there in terms of difficulty isn't going to happen easily, even for 5.14 climbers, to whom some on this site ascribe an eerie omniscience and freedom from the rules that restrain the rest of the more highly gravity-bound.

It's just rock climbing. They're not chipping AND they're getting paid for it. Throw in some babes and I'm willing to concede that regardless of niggling details, these gentlemen are very likely making better choices than most of us.

What minor offense were we discussing again?


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