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Oct 21, 2012
East Face 800' C1 5.10.800' Texas Tower , Texas Ca...
Dawn Wall. Been watchinga TV program where climbers were attempting to free climb Dawn Wall on El Cap. Maybe I am old fasioned but reducing a three thousand foot climb to sport pitches with draws already placed ahead of the attempt(regardless of difficulty ) seems not quite Kosher if you know what I mean ... What do you think ? USBRIT
From Keswick Cumbria.UK
Joined Apr 9, 2001
17,426 points
Oct 21, 2012
Their goal is to redpoint each pitch, in order, bottom to top in one ascent, and thereby free the route.


It's widely accepted that having a biner or draw on a piece of fixed pro is: A. easier B. Fair game for freeclimbing/redpointing pitches.

Hence they are putting draws on the fixed pro, and spending time on the hardest moves.

They are also placing any non-fixed gear on lead attempts.

And that's what makes sense for a possible FFA of any difficulty: to accomplish it in the most efficient way possible. (which in this case, may be the ONLY way possible, or it may still not be possible)

Would it be more impressive for someone to send that route going ground-up? Definitely.

Would it be more impressive for someone to send that route in bowling shoes? Definitely.

Both would be amazing accomplishments, neither is going to be how such routes get freed.
ClimberRunner
From Redmond, WA
Joined Feb 22, 2009
18 points
Oct 21, 2012
Me scaring years off my mom's life
I think Tommy Caldwell has proven himself as more than just a pink-pointing sport climber. Watching someone free-climb that many pitches of 5.13 and 5.14 up El Cap is pretty inspiring, preplaced draws or not. Austin Baird
From SLC, Utah
Joined Apr 26, 2009
101 points
Oct 21, 2012
I'll reserve my style judgements for when I can actually do the route in a better style than him. TC is as good at free climbing in the valley as anyone is, I don't see any problems. michaeltarne
Joined Jan 2, 2011
124 points
Oct 21, 2012
USBRIT wrote:
Dawn Wall. Been watchinga TV program where climbers were attempting to free climb Dawn Wall on El Cap. Maybe I am old fasioned but reducing a three thousand foot climb to sport pitches with draws already placed ahead of the attempt(regardless of difficulty ) seems not quite Kosher if you know what I mean ... What do you think ?


I dont know if i'd call anything they're doing on El Cap a 'sport' pitch. Multiple 5.13 pitches protected by copperheads and marginal rp's seem to be the standard for that climb. They are being very careful to not place extra bolts on the aid line or otherwise decrease the challenge of the route for aid climbers.
John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Joined Feb 1, 2004
2,395 points
Oct 21, 2012
East Face 800' C1 5.10.800' Texas Tower , Texas Ca...
If I remember when they freed Muir wall in 2001 photos showed pre place cams . Does this mean that second ascents have to rap the climb to preplace protection or do they aid it first? Does it mention somewhere on the decription of the free ascent about preplaced pro?. As you say good effort but..... USBRIT
From Keswick Cumbria.UK
Joined Apr 9, 2001
17,426 points
Oct 22, 2012
So far as I am aware, when Tommy and co. have gone on their redpoint attempts, they are placing gear on lead. If they fall, they lower back to belay and go again. I dont know if they pull the gear or not. John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Joined Feb 1, 2004
2,395 points
Oct 22, 2012
gotta love it when someone who cant climb anyone near that level complain about the "ethics" of people who go out there and do it ...

perhaps people can get on that wall and show mr Caldwell, Jorgeson and Siegrist how to REALLY climb

;)
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
2,153 points
Oct 22, 2012
The Canyon...Spider Savage.
Bearbreeder......ethics are ethics regardless of your ability. Ground up, red point, yo-yo, trad or sport, it's the same standard for everyone. Elite climbers don't shat any more or less than the rest of us. What Tommy Caldwell and crew are doing is inspirational and impressive, but don't try to sell us that their ascent of the Dawn Wall should be judged by different standard because of their abilities. You may not like USBRIT's tone, but THERE ARE NO DOUBLE STANDARDS BASED ON ABILITY! Even armchair climbers have 1st Amendment rights and the right to complain, just like you, me and elite climbers. Benjamin Chapman
From Small Town, USA
Joined Jan 2, 2007
13,523 points
Oct 22, 2012
You stay away from mah pig!
USBRIT wrote:
Dawn Wall. Been watchinga TV program where climbers were attempting to free climb Dawn Wall on El Cap. Maybe I am old fasioned but reducing a three thousand foot climb to sport pitches with draws already placed ahead of the attempt(regardless of difficulty ) seems not quite Kosher if you know what I mean ... What do you think ?



yawn.
camhead
From Vandalia, Appalachia
Joined Jun 27, 2006
1,369 points
Oct 22, 2012
the frozen topout during a winter ascent
Benjamin Chapman wrote:
Bearbreeder......ethics are ethics regardless of your ability. Ground up, red point, yo-yo, trad or sport, it's the same standard for everyone. Elite climbers don't shat any more or less than the rest of us. What Tommy Caldwell and crew are doing is inspirational and impressive, but don't try to sell us that their ascent of the Dawn Wall should be judged by different standard because of their abilities. You may not like USBRIT's tone, but THERE ARE NO DOUBLE STANDARDS BASED ON ABILITY! Even armchair climbers have 1st Amendment rights and the right to complain, just like you, me and elite climbers.


Because bearbreeder was questioning usbrit's 1st amendment right?
Nick Zmyewski
From Newark, Delaware
Joined Jun 2, 2011
132 points
Oct 22, 2012
Nick Stayner near the crux. Ryan Minton photo.
USBRIT wrote:
Dawn Wall. Been watchinga TV program where climbers were attempting to free climb Dawn Wall on El Cap. Maybe I am old fasioned but reducing a three thousand foot climb to sport pitches with draws already placed ahead of the attempt(regardless of difficulty ) seems not quite Kosher if you know what I mean ... What do you think ?


I think you should go out there and one-up Tommy on style! Good luck with that... then maybe your opinion could hold some water.
Nick Stayner
From Billings, MT
Joined Mar 6, 2006
2,606 points
Oct 22, 2012
Batman Pinnacle
Benjamin Chapman wrote:
Bearbreeder......ethics are ethics regardless of your ability. Ground up, red point, yo-yo, trad or sport, it's the same standard for everyone. Elite climbers don't shat any more or less than the rest of us. What Tommy Caldwell and crew are doing is inspirational and impressive, but don't try to sell us that their ascent of the Dawn Wall should be judged by different standard because of their abilities. You may not like USBRIT's tone, but THERE ARE NO DOUBLE STANDARDS BASED ON ABILITY! Even armchair climbers have 1st Amendment rights and the right to complain, just like you, me and elite climbers.


Agreed, which is why I'm way more impressed by the guy who did it ground up on the first try!

Wait... that's nobody?

Tommy's ascent is incredibly impressive and a huge leap forward no matter how he does it. When someone from the next generation comes along and onsites it, that will be even more impressive, but we're nowhere near that level yet. Let's just applaud and encourage Tommy Caldwell for the huge leap forward he's trying to take.

Bottom line: If you're open about the style you use and not altering the route, then who cares how you climb something?
Scott O
From California
Joined Mar 30, 2010
26 points
Administrator
Oct 22, 2012
Green Monster  Photo by Thomas Holmes.
I think I may give USBRIT's opinion a bit more weight than those of some of the rest of us. Perin Blanchard
From Orem, UT
Joined Oct 1, 2005
8,418 points
Oct 22, 2012
Me again!
Perin Blanchard wrote:
I think I may give USBRIT's opinion a bit more weight than those of some of the rest of us.



Seriously? Then let's see him show us what good style is instead of whining about it on the internet and starting a flame war. Actions always speak louder than words.

And no, you can't just assume that because you have mastered one part of climbing your experience transfers to another. If you have never climbed a 5.14 you don't know what it means to climb 5.14. If you have only climbed 5.14 sport and go to the black your gonna die. Climbing ethics are worse than bad porn, they work in all different sorts of ways, everyone has a different preference, and climbing is just a very vague term to say you like to suffer on rock.

He is basically saying that his way of suffering is the correct way and that is the very definition of egocentric behavior. The only real question is: How exactly do you prefer to suffer, and does your way of suffering really impede others ability to suffer how they want to?
J Q
Joined Mar 11, 2012
58 points
Oct 22, 2012
Jonhy Q wrote:
Then let's see him show us what good style is instead of whining about it on the internet and starting a flame war

Anyone who has visited the Swell and climbed some of his routes there has a pair of stained underwear that makes a solid testimony to his understanding of good style...
Boissal
From Small Lake, UT
Joined Aug 21, 2006
1,729 points
Oct 22, 2012
Half Dome
TC and company are climbing multiple 5.13 and 5.14 pitches on El Cap...seriously you really think this would have happened without sport climbing and alternate techniques from ground up and placing every draw. Be realistic. If someone comes along 50 years from now and onsights the Dawn Wall ground up, placing all gear, believe me they will have years of sport climbing, advanced equipment under their belts to have achieved such a level. TC has already climbed more hard trad on El Cap than anyone. Sorry ground up isn't going to get 5.14+ done on El Cap. Most, if not all the "easy" routes on El Cap are done. In fact it might not be even possible to bolt these pitches from hooks and marginal stances...not to mention test the moves and sequences. This climbing is so hard without inspection on rappel it might not be possible and you might be bolting into a wasteland, never to be climbed.

Fine to celebrate ground up ascents, place all the gear ascents...just not the only way to climb. How many 5.14, 5.14+ ground up ascents are there? Any?
Paul Hunnicutt
From Boulder, CO
Joined Sep 23, 2006
352 points
Oct 22, 2012
yaak crack Red Rock Canyon, NV
Even Lynn Hill pre-hung draws on pre-placed pro in order to free climb the nose in one push. So what? Big deal. This in no way diminishes the value of her achievement: free climbing something that had previously only ever been aided.

I want to furthermore this by sayin'; Lynn Hill is dreamy. She put the houdini corner thing (changing corners) at 5.13b, a pitch that was later conceded to be 5.14a/b. sigh... dreamy.
Jon Zucco
From Denver, CO
Joined Aug 15, 2008
357 points
Oct 22, 2012
Me again!
Boissal wrote:
Anyone who has visited the Swell and climbed some of his routes there has a pair of stained underwear that makes a solid testimony to his understanding of good style...



Or more likely, it has become your understanding of good style. I am not saying that his style of suffering isn't legit, he seems to love it, and good on him, I am just saying that . . . it is not the only style.

Is this really a hard to concept to understand? It's not science. It's climbing. Just like porn, everyone has a different preference. You like to shit in your pants, but some people think that's not so cool. Fecal porn is a huge hit but it is not the only porn. Your possible love of fecal porn does not interfere with my ability to appreciate other porn, so why should I begin ranting about it on the internet? Oh, I see, to make you feel bad that your choices aren't my own.

Like I said: ego-centric behavior.
J Q
Joined Mar 11, 2012
58 points
Oct 22, 2012
the man was smart
Jon Zucco wrote:
Even Lynn Hill pre-hung draws on pre-placed pro in order to free climb the nose in one push. So what? Big deal. This in no way diminishes the value on her achievement: free climbing something that had previously only ever been aided. I want to furthermore this by sayin'; Lynn Hill is dreamy. She put the houdini corner thing at 5.13, a pitch that was later conceded to be 5.14a/b. sigh... dreamy.


ratings for men and women are vastly different on cracks. If only I could hand jam in a .75 crack...
T Roper
From VA,NM,UT,CT,MA
Joined Mar 31, 2006
1,057 points
Oct 22, 2012
Me again!
fair weather climber wrote:
ratings for men and women are vastly different on cracks. If only I could hand jam in a .75 crack...



Now that is a good troll!
J Q
Joined Mar 11, 2012
58 points
Oct 22, 2012
Colonel Mustard
Jonhy Q wrote:
Now that is a good troll!


You're right about that. Complaining hand size is the last defense of the true whiner. Right after height issues. Or weight.
Colonel Mustard
Joined Sep 13, 2005
1,382 points
Oct 22, 2012
Jonhy Q wrote:
Something about dipping my dong in feces

I can't recall stating my opinion about the Dawn Wall... All I said is that USBrit has good style. It doesn't mean I consider pre-clipped draws on 5.14+R on big walls as a pussification of the sport. I don't.
I'm not sure what made you feel like you needed to ride your fecal-analogy horse to fight the windmills here.
Boissal
From Small Lake, UT
Joined Aug 21, 2006
1,729 points
Oct 22, 2012
yaak crack Red Rock Canyon, NV
Boissal wrote:
I'm not sure what made you feel like you needed to ride your fecal-analogy horse to fight the windmills here.


this is superb imagery.
Jon Zucco
From Denver, CO
Joined Aug 15, 2008
357 points
Oct 22, 2012
Shelf Rd
Jonhy Q wrote:
Or more likely, it has become your understanding of good style. I am not saying that his style of suffering isn't legit, he seems to love it, and good on him, I am just saying that . . . it is not the only style. Is this really a hard to concept to understand? It's not science. It's climbing. Just like porn, everyone has a different preference. You like to shit in your pants, but some people think that's not so cool. Fecal porn is a huge hit but it is not the only porn. Your possible love of fecal porn does not interfere with my ability to appreciate other porn, so why should I begin ranting about it on the internet? Oh, I see, to make you feel bad that your choices aren't my own. Like I said: ego-centric behavior.


Oh, wow! HAHA this is priceless!!! I LOL'ed for many minutes
Kenan
Joined Apr 15, 2010
1,223 points
Oct 22, 2012
0
I say good on em for freeing this route, it's been several years since I've done the dawn wall , good route! Loved it! And I believe I'd still love aiding that sucker again if I had the energy , what kills me about this thread is people who have proably never climbed the captain are complaining like someone is killing there route ? If they want to complain about bolts added n such how about complaining about all the convenience bolts placed at belays all over the captain?!!!! Last time I was up on one route in particular there were no fewer than 16 bolts at one belay. If you have climbed the captain you know which routes I'm talking about.

I'm not here to start a pissing match with anyone , everyone is entitled to there own opinion ( cuz there like assholes everyone has one, I am one dig it?)

While I'm not a fan of the two men who are freeing this route I don't have anything bad to say about there style or the way they choose to climb any route free/ aid / whatever .
And while ill never climb 5:13 or prolly 5:11 for that matter I still think there is nothing wrong with someone who does other than all the yelling and shit they do while working it
That's why I don't watch climbing videos sounds like someone is ass rapeing a goose lol
iceman777
From Colorado Springs
Joined Oct 19, 2007
65 points


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