Login with Facebook
 ADVANCED
Dangerous Fiasco on Alexander's Chimney Tuesday
View Latest Posts in This Forum or All Forums
   Page 3 of 4.  <<First   <Prev   1  2  3  4   Next>   Last>>
Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
 
 
By skiclimber
Oct 29, 2012
jibbing at chasm lake

Rowdy Wrangellian wrote:
Sounds like a rat race from the parking lot. Maybe the Climbing Rangers should put in some new climber/hiker registration forms at the trail-head to give people an idea of who's on what route. I like how the Black Canyon has a dry erase board for climbers to sign in and out on.


-1


FLAG
By Hank Caylor
Administrator
From Golden, CO
Oct 29, 2012
Yoda

Jeff Kent wrote:
Easy Diaphragm, easy:) Get yourself out of your little junky bubble in Rock Springs and go climbing. I've been up Longs more times than you can count. Yes, more than ten. Next time I'm at Subway at Little America I'll give you and your sis a shout.


=AWESOME!!! actually this whole thread is really 1st rate!


FLAG
By Marc H
From Lafayette, CO
Oct 29, 2012
The Cathedral Spires in RMNP, left to right: Stiletto, Sharkstooth, Forbidden Tower, Petit Grepon, The Saber, The Foil, The Moon & The Jackknife.

Hank Caylor wrote:
=AWESOME!!! actually this whole thread is really 1st rate!


Hopefully the other party shows up. That always makes these threads so much better.


FLAG
By Jon Zucco
From Denver, CO
Oct 29, 2012
yaak crack Red Rock Canyon, NV

Ian Stewart wrote:
I have no idea what this climb looks like, nor have I ever even ice climbed before, but if I got to the base of a rock climb and saw another party 20 feet to the left of the climb I'm planning on doing, I wouldn't even think that they're doing the same climb. So, I don't think they were in the bad when they started. Then, you said they passed you at the first belay? Was this belay still 20 feet off to the left, or was it right on top of them? If the former, I guess I still don't see the problem. If the latter, you didn't have enough courage to speak up then and tell them to back off? Why wait until the day after to post on MP? Even if you were off to the left, you couldn't mention to them "hey, we started on a variation here so you're going to be in our way"? Regardless of what happened, complaining about it on MP isn't the answer. Anonymous people on the internet isn't the best place to look for validation.


I would be inclined to agree with you for the most part. It sounds like a major lack of communication and understanding of the route variations really. But the way the OP describes the shenanigans leads one to believe that the "offending" party was rude, dangerous and uncooperative.

AND; where else would one seek a more efficient form of validation if not MP? If you know of a better place to share frivolous yet somewhat educational/entertaining stories and spray about climbing, please, do share!


FLAG
By Kurt Ross
From Boulder, colorado
Oct 30, 2012
Every single day.

rabble rabble rabble!
Ethics and junk!


FLAG
By Jim Amidon
Oct 30, 2012
J TREE

Alexanders Chimney is a long way to hike for a fight about who got there first.........


FLAG
By Christian Mason
From Arvada, CO
Oct 30, 2012
Dragon's Tongue - Vail, Co.

Ian Stewart wrote:
I have no idea what this climb looks like, nor have I ever even ice climbed before, but if I got to the base of a rock climb and saw another party 20 feet to the left of the climb I'm planning on doing, I wouldn't even think that they're doing the same climb. So, I don't think they were in the bad when they started. Then, you said they passed you at the first belay? Was this belay still 20 feet off to the left, or was it right on top of them? If the former, I guess I still don't see the problem. If the latter, you didn't have enough courage to speak up then and tell them to back off? Why wait until the day after to post on MP? Even if you were off to the left, you couldn't mention to them "hey, we started on a variation here so you're going to be in our way"? Regardless of what happened, complaining about it on MP isn't the answer. Anonymous people on the internet isn't the best place to look for validation.


Due to rope drag, my partner was belaying directly below the crux of P1. There was clearly no where for us to go but to continue on the climb, and was had told the same party were were doing this climb when we encountered them at the parking lot.

In order to pass us, they had to climb directly over and around my partner, to the point that they would've stabbed him with their crampons had they fallen.

I DID call them on it at the time. First telling their leader that they was they passed us was not safe, then pointing out to one of their seconds that what the were doing was against normal climbing ethics and directly endangered our safety.


I fully acknowledge that I could have handled this better. It would have been more mature of me to bail when they passed, rather than returning the favor and continuing a dangerous situation. To be honest, the option didn't occur to me at the time, and I was trying to get out of the line of fire as quickly as possible. A pitch later, we made the correct decision and bailed.

I'm also not posting this for points, or to shame anyone. I haven't named the climbers involved, and I'm not looking for some form of validation or sympathy. After speaking to a climbing friend (who mentioned something similar a week or two ago) it seemed worth putting out there publicly that passing other parties without permission in an ice funnel = endangering their lives.


FLAG
By CJC
Oct 30, 2012

yeah that was lame what they did and you're right as shitty as it is bailing right away would have been the prudent choice.

I've had to do that...went up to solo an easy gully near sawpit and had some other guy show up at the base, also intending to solo. even when he realized he'd be right under me the whole way. rather than drop ice on him the whole way I traversed out and went home. it's just not worth injury or death man.

oh also he tied his dog up at the base lol


FLAG
 
By John Fatseas
From Denver, CO
Oct 30, 2012
Lake City, CO <br />mixin it up

Jon Zucco wrote:
I would be inclined to agree with you for the most part. It sounds like a major lack of communication and understanding of the route variations really. But the way the OP describes the shenanigans leads one to believe that the "offending" party was rude, dangerous and uncooperative. AND; where else would one seek a more efficient form of validation if not MP? If you know of a better place to share frivolous yet somewhat educational/entertaining stories and spray about climbing, please, do share!


I can think of one reason not to seek validation on MP: Because people like Ian Stewart (who you quoted) who have never seen the route or climbed ice feel their opinion is important in this matter. If you've never seen the route or even iced climbed, then how could you possibly know what the OP was going through??


FLAG
By Ian Stewart
Oct 30, 2012

Christian Mason wrote:
...we had told the same party were were doing this climb when we encountered them at the parking lot. In order to pass us, they had to climb directly over and around my partner, to the point that they would've stabbed him with their crampons had they fallen. I DID call them on it at the time. First telling their leader that they was they passed us was not safe, then pointing out to one of their seconds that what the were doing was against normal climbing ethics and directly endangered our safety.


Thanks for clearing some of those things up, as it now paints a completely different picture in my head and does make it seem like a very dangerous situation that they put you in. (And I probably shouldn't have said that you're "seeking validation", sorry about that).

I guess what I meant to say with my post is that if they really are putting you in danger, don't call them out on it AFTER it happens. It's not like they were beneath you then instantly above you; climbing past you must have taken time and you would have seen it happen, right? If somebody was putting me in danger, I wouldn't wait any second longer than needed to tell them to back the fuck off, regardless of the sport (I haven't needed to do this while climbing yet, but I have while biking). Some people are dicks and the only way to "fight" them is to be assertive. And some people really just don't know any better.

John Fatseas wrote:
I can think of one reason not to seek validation on MP: Because people like Ian Stewart (who you quoted) who have never seen the route or climbed ice feel their opinion is important in this matter. If you've never seen the route or even iced climbed, then how could you possibly know what the OP was going through??


You're right, I didn't have any idea what Christian was going through, which is why I asked questions in my post. My mistake was saying that he was "seeking validation", as I appologized for above, but I don't think that takes away from my opinion that you need to put your safety first; certainly before your fear of confrontation with strangers who are putting your life in danger.


FLAG
By Christian Mason
From Arvada, CO
Oct 31, 2012
Dragon's Tongue - Vail, Co.

Ian Stewart wrote:
Thanks for clearing some of those things up, as it now paints a completely different picture in my head and does make it seem like a very dangerous situation that they put you in. (And I probably shouldn't have said that you're "seeking validation", sorry about that). I guess what I meant to say with my post is that if they really are putting you in danger, don't call them out on it AFTER it happens. It's not like they were beneath you then instantly above you; climbing past you must have taken time and you would have seen it happen, right? If somebody was putting me in danger, I wouldn't wait any second longer than needed to tell them to back the fuck off, regardless of the sport (I haven't needed to do this while climbing yet, but I have while biking). Some people are dicks and the only way to "fight" them is to be assertive. And some people really just don't know any better. You're right, I didn't have any idea what Christian was going through, which is why I asked questions in my post. My mistake was saying that he was "seeking validation", as I appologized for above, but I don't think that takes away from my opinion that you need to put your safety first; certainly before your fear of confrontation with strangers who are putting your life in danger.



No worries, and I agree completely. I'm normally pretty straight forward and assertive. In fact, people that won't be direct kind of irk me.

My partner and I would both incredulous when they first passed, and it took me a few minutes to collect my thoughts beyond "WTF are they doing?". While I mentioned it shortly afterward, I do wish I'd thought at the time to just call them on it before they exposed us to danger.


FLAG
By TBlom
Oct 31, 2012

Had a similar experience many years ago (not on ice though). We were the first party on a ~10 pitch moderate yosemite route.

A very famous speed climber was guiding two clients (guide wearing approach shoes on 5.10!). Don't get me wrong, dude is Bad A, and has every right to pass when he is climbing with someone else who is fast.

But, he climbed right over my rope and established an unusual anchor 10 feet above me, which also created a piss poor rope crossing situation. Proceeded to introduce himself, and brought his two followers up simultaneously (neither of which could lead the route).

The guide was soloing the route between anchors and then bringing up his clients; pretty easy to catch us that way. He then tried to pass us on a 'crowded variation' to beat us to the upper pitches. What a bastard, needing to pass us with clients who can't even lead!

We raced through the next section, barely placing any gear to beat Captain Douche master and his followers. We beat him to the cut off as his clients struggled through the harder bypass version. We had a cordial lunch at the top next to them, before they rushed to get to the rappels before us.

Dude is a Bad A climber; doesn't change the fact that he is an arrogant SOB with no ethics toward other climbers. If dude had been climbing with an equal instead of guiding, we would have sat back and watched in awe. Pretty lame to trail noobs in front of us.
Sucks people have to climb up yer rear and cause stupid situations when there are so many other options nearby.


FLAG
By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Oct 31, 2012
Bocan

Tevis Blom wrote:
The guide was soloing the route between anchors and then bringing up his clients; pretty easy to catch us that way.


So if something "happens" to the guide, you have two people stuck on the wall which either SAR or another party will have to rescue.

Sounds like a responsible business model. Do most guiding services follow this or something similar? Just curious.


FLAG
By TBlom
Oct 31, 2012

yep, likewise, if something had happened to one of his clients, he barely had any rack to bail with.

We've bailed on plenty of lines because someone beat us to the base. Try hiking up to the base of Gambit at 6am to find out we weren't the first! But we found another route to climb instead of risking being behind someone else and causing a log jam.

Our rule for long routes is never behind another party. Either they will be slow, blocking access all day. Or they will be fast, and dropping stuff. Either way, no need to be right on someone's tail.


FLAG
By Cor
Nov 2, 2012
black nasty

In speaking of dangerous fiasco on Alexander's...

Who ever took a shit at/on the top of the first pitch
is a real asshole! It is smeared down the ice, and stinks!

Go take yer shit somewhere else, or dig a hole in the giant
mound of snow, and cover it up. You suck.

Thank you.


FLAG
By Buff Johnson
Nov 2, 2012
smiley face

Buff Johnson wrote:
Colorado is such a shit show when it comes to ice climbing



For Cor


FLAG
 
By John D
Nov 2, 2012

Scott McMahon wrote:
So if something "happens" to the guide, you have two people stuck on the wall which either SAR or another party will have to rescue. Sounds like a responsible business model. Do most guiding services follow this or something similar? Just curious.



Most guides place some pro (more to protect the seconds than themselves)but honestly, when you're guiding climbs like that, it's the equivalent of soloing. The clients most likely just learned to belay and the odds of them catching you is pretty slim, so it's pretty much a no fall situation.

The other consideration about placing gear is, your clients climb slow, so the less gear you place saves you time in several ways, one is it takes less time for you to stop and place (not that it takes that long) but then the clients have to remove the gear (which they frequently struggle with, and you have to exchange the gear at the belay. So the less fussing with gear, the faster you move.

Also it's not like clients can build anchors and rap down a route like most climbers would, if the guide gets hurt, some sort of rescue is going to have to happen.


FLAG
By Brad White
Nov 2, 2012

Many years ago, I was guiding the Snaz in the Tetons. My client and I were 3 or 4 pitches up the route, having gotten a stupid-early start, and along comes a party of two that I quickly noticed was climbing very fast. It turns out it was Mugs Stump guiding a client, and they were hauling ass because Mugs was leading, belay to belay, without placing any gear. He caught us at the top of the wide crack, and when I commented to Mugs about the lack of pro, he looked at me, grinned, and said, "it's good training for the alpine". That seemed to me an appropriate "business model" for the circumstances.

Climbing situations are not always the same, and applying a rigid set of rules such as "a faster party can only pass when given permission" is unrealistic, and also not in the spirit of climbing.


FLAG
By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Nov 2, 2012
Bocan

Interesting about the guiding as I don't have any familiarity. I guess unless you are guiding other experience climbers you don't have much choice, and like was stated it's almost soloing anyways.

Thanks!


FLAG
By Brandon Groza
From Bend, OR
Nov 2, 2012
Chomp. Summer climbing in RMNP.

Cor wrote:
In speaking of dangerous fiasco on Alexander's... Who ever took a shit at/on the top of the first pitch is a real asshole! It is smeared down the ice, and stinks! Go take yer shit somewhere else, or dig a hole in the giant mound of snow, and cover it up. You suck. Thank you.


+1


FLAG
By justin dubois
From Estes Park
Nov 2, 2012
Lost Cities 5.12a,Black Canyon,CO

bunch of whining bitches. Either get up earlier, hike faster, or trundle a dinner plate special on those fucks who CLIMBED FASTER AS A PARTY OF 3?


FLAG
By Rick McL
From Arvada CO
Nov 4, 2012
Long day on the ice.

What's happening to our sport?
In the nineteen seventies Respect, Safety, Good Sportmanship and Comraderie were taught as core values for a climber.
Lets get it back.


FLAG
By Reginald McChufferton
Nov 4, 2012

Rick McL wrote:
What's happening to our sport? In the nineteen seventies Respect, Safety, Good Sportmanship and Comraderie were taught as core values for a climber. Lets get it back.


To whom is this comment directed? The OP or the PARTY OF 3 that "passed" them even though they were ON A DIFFERENT ROUTE?

And the Robins/ Harding squabble is just ONE well publicized example of how your revisionist history of climbing back in the day is complete and utter bull shit. Fairly sure that Beckey's pissed of more than a hand full of climbers as well.


FLAG
By skiclimber
Nov 4, 2012
jibbing at chasm lake

Reginald McChufferton wrote:
To whom is this comment directed? The OP or the PARTY OF 3 that "passed" them even though they were ON A DIFFERENT ROUTE? And the Robins/ Harding squabble is just ONE well publicized example of how your revisionist history of climbing back in the day is complete and utter bull shit. Fairly sure that Beckey's pissed of more than a hand full of climbers as well.


McChufferton your my hero!!! +1


FLAG
 
By Rick McL
From Arvada CO
Nov 4, 2012
Long day on the ice.

Reginald,
I'm not sure how you've concluded that I've revised the history of my own climbing life, or climbing history in general, and that it is bull shit, but I respect your view regardless of how you've reached it.
My intent is to inject some civility into the dialogue and prevent people from thinking that it's OK to send blocks of ice down on ill tempered climbers below, wether or not you passed them or they passed you, or whatever.
Perhaps the future of our sport is sending an elbow to the jaw of another climber on a crowded belay, but it really wasn't like that in the past. It was cool. When we met people at the base of a climb, or on a route, we went out and partied that night together and made lifetime friends, not enemies.
I taught my kids respect, safety, good sportmanship and comraderie as values to apply in all aspects of their lives, including climbing. It seems to have served them well, as it would you.
No bullshit.


FLAG


Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
Page 3 of 4.  <<First   <Prev   1  2  3  4   Next>   Last>>