Daisies, Aiders, and that Crazy Thing Called Aid Climbing

MP, I am starting to get into aid climbing and have a few questions about aid climbing that I have read about, want to see if the wealth of knowledge that exists on MP can help me out.

So, my question is about using daisy chains in the leading sequence. I have seen it a couple of different ways and want to know what is appropriate and when.

I have seen:

1.) No daisies on your aiders or gear. Seems efficient because you don't need to worry about tangles but the risk is that you can drop something. Also, If you were to fall while your aider is in the next piece, you could potentially fall below and not be able to reach it.

2.) Daisies connected to your aiders: Can't lose your aiders.But if you were to fall, I could see the forces generated from that short fall on the static daisy to be severe and have the potential to injure.

3. Daisies connected to the piece you are about to place. you can't drop your gear but again could generate a lot of force on your body.

I hope that is confusing enough for all of you to follow. Advice greatly appreciated!

Personally, I do option 2. I don't find it to be very inefficient or cause too much of a cluster once you get used to it. Option 3 is used by some very skilled aid climbers, so that is something to consider.

I've taken numerous factor 1+ daisy falls and they aren't a big deal. I use nylon daisies, so they do stretch a bit. Even on my nearly factor 2 daisy falls, the piece I fell onto didn't rip. I think the danger of this type of fall is a bit over-blown; don't trust my opinion though.

My advice comes from leading 2 El Cap ascents up to C4 and 5 lesser walls in the Valley and Zion. I'm no speed climber, but I can typically lead and haul 5-7 C2-C3 El Cap pitches in the summer daylight. I learned the "Macnamara Method" from back when it was only videos and articles on Supertopo. It has worked well for me.

I'm a big fan of #2 (with a fifi hook). It is a lot of stuff going on, but with a little practice it is easy to keep it straight and move very quickly. If you're doing the sequence correctly, the weight in a fall should not be getting caught by the daisy chain. The Daisy ends up serving as a hook-in point for the Fifi for static load. If the piece you're loading blows and you take a fall, the rope is going to take the fall, not the daisy. Sequence goes something like this.

-Place a piece
-Clip in as High as you can on the piece with your daisy/aider
-Bounce test on a low rung
-Transfer full weight to the new piece and shift your fifi to the highest comfortable loop on the daisy so that you're resting on the new piece
-Reach back and remove your daisy/aider from the previous piece, clip the rope in
-Climb up the steps of the aider resetting your Fifi as high as possible on the daisy or directly to the piece
-Rest at the new piece as high as possible to place the next one
-Repeat

I've tried the different techniques, and this is what I liked best. YMMV. Try them all on a heavily bolted gym line or a easy line and see what works best for you. If you're just using the daisy to prevent dropping stuff, you can skip the bulky webbing and just use a long piece of cording as a leash, but if you're using a Fifi Hook with the daisies, it can make it a very easily adjustable system for reducing your hang time and conserving energy.

wsperry wrote:MP, I am starting to get into aid climbing and have a few questions about aid climbing that I have read about, want to see if the wealth of knowledge that exists on MP can help me out. So, my question is about using daisy chains in the leading sequence. I have seen it a couple of different ways and want to know what is appropriate and when. I have seen: 1.) No daisies on your aiders or gear. Seems efficient because you don't need to worry about tangles but the risk is that you can drop something. Also, If you were to fall while your aider is in the next piece, you could potentially fall below and not be able to reach it. 2.) Daisies connected to your aiders: Can't lose your aiders.But if you were to fall, I could see the forces generated from that short fall on the static daisy to be severe and have the potential to injure. 3. Daisies connected to the piece you are about to place. you can't drop your gear but again could generate a lot of force on your body. I hope that is confusing enough for all of you to follow. Advice greatly appreciated!

I'm not an aid expert, but I'll try to answer based on my limited aid experience.

I use method #2 almost exclusively. I agree that #1 would be very efficient for easy aid and I've certainly seen some good aid climbers advocate this. I'd be ok with this on very straight forwad C1. I still occasionally blow pieces and fumble stuff, so this is not a standard method for me just for fear of dropping things.

When using #2, you should really take every measure possible to ensure you do not daisy fall to the last piece. That means bounce test the crap out of things when appropriate and as soon as you commit to a piece, get your daisy/ladder off the last one and clip the rope (if you're using it for protection).

I only clip the gear straight to the daisy (before placing it) when I'm using hooks or camhooks.

Little off topic but I have to give the Allfrifi Hook adjustable fifi a plug. This thing is freakin awesome and really speeds up the process. Place your piece, bounce test, fifi direct to the piece or biner, stand up repeat. The buckle action is way smoother than the Yates adjustable so it's easy to use and extend on overhead placements.

Allfrifi Hook

Skot Richards is making them, Bigwall Viking on Supertopo

25 El Cap routes, no daisies, I've taken a few falls, some quite long, and have never lost an aider.

I was talking with Dave Allfrey and Cheyne Lempe (two guys who are easily better, and faster than 99.9% of all aid climbers) last night about this very subject. Both worried about daisy falls and both admitted that being attached to their daisies caused clusters that required time and energy to keep straight.

Here is a bit of aid advice that I've learned and used. (Both Cheyene and Dave do this):

Make your best placement.
Bounce the fuck out of it. (don't bounce cams or hooks). Bounce like you want to pull it out of the wall!
Get on it and totally forget about it.
Repeat.

Mark Hudon wrote:25 El Cap routes, no daisies, I've take a few falls, some quite long, and have never lost an aider. I was talking with Dave Allfrey and Cheyne Lempe (two guys who are easily better, and faster than 99.9% of all aid climbers) last night about this very subject. Both worried about daisy falls and both admitted that being attached to their daisies caused clusters that required time and energy to keep straight.

Mark, when you have fallen while standing on a piece with no daisy attached, where has you ladder ended up? Are you just hanging on to it with your hand while you fall?

BTW, taking DA's aid clinic in a couple weeks at the fall highball in Bishop and totally psyched to learn from him!

Sadly, I have to admit that I've flown 50 feet once and 30 feet more than a couple times, not including numerous smaller falls. The aiders always end up tangled up around me.

Don't forget that you are standing in the steps when the piece pulls, it's falling along with you and at the same speed.

Case in point. How many aid slings do you find at the base of routes? In all of my time on and at the base of El Cap (easily a few hundred days), I've found maybe three.

I'm new to aid and pretty much learned from CMac videos - no daisies except for a few hook moves or when I think the gear is less than ideal.

I've watched a lot of slow parties (mine included) fiddling with twisted adjustable daisies, 3-4 aiders on a C0 pitch.

In my limited wall experience the cruxes are usually free-able in the 5.12 range (Washington column, Moonlight, U-wall) so the gear is for the most part bomber... there's no reason to spend time bounce testing a good cam/nut placement.

I almost exclusively use option number 1. Daisies slow you down drastically. I do however use a QuickDraw as a fifi hook. Using a harness with two belay loops I have a QuickDraw on one and a my solo device on the other. After placing a piece and attaching the aider, I attach the QuickDraw to the piece, (or aider carabiner if it's a nut). This ensures that you never drop anything.

Mark Hudon wrote:(don't bounce cams or hooks).

I would definitely bounce small cams. Big cams in solid placements dont need to be tested, but small cams are not particularly reliable, especially when placed in flares and other types of aid placements. I've had many pull on bounce tests.

@20Kn,

I believe he meant cam hooks? Correct me if i'm wrong, but that is how I understood it.

Yeah I think he meant Cam hooks.. Where you use the "ease onto it" method.

Anyone use a spinner leash type setup for aid instead of a daisy as a sortof hybrid between 1 and 2? Definitely can't rest on it, but would protect against the dreaded dropsies and be less of a tangle and fiddling than daisies.

Edit: I am an aid n00b, have no clue what I am doing, am almost certainly missing some obvious reason no one does this, and am almost certainly going to die.