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Convert Quickdraws to Dogbones?
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By NYClimber
From New York
Jun 24, 2013
Awesome slab climb right out of the water! Rogers Rock, Lake George, NY. Summer 2013.

I have a bunch of Sterling 7/16" x 12 inch Quickdraws that I am wondering if they is generally any 'safe way' to constrict each end more-like a dogbone to make them a less 'loose' on the ends?

I saw a video that showed it is not a good idea to use rubberbands at each end to do so as they can slip thru in a way that someone thinks they are in-fact only snugged up but not even hooked onto the carabiner(s) w/o just slipping right off the end(s) when weighted.

Any suggestions?

Or am I better off just to go out and buy dogbone slings and be done with it?


Sterling & BD Quickdraws
Sterling & BD Quickdraws


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By Joe Palma
From Stouffville, Ontario
Jun 24, 2013

NYClimber wrote:
Or am I better off just to go out and buy dogbone slings and be done with it?


Not be glib, but yes.


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By slim
Administrator
Jun 24, 2013
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.

you can buy the little rubber petzl gaskets for a couple bucks and use one on the clipping biner. leave the bolt biner free.


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By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Jun 24, 2013
OTL

Sell those 12" slings to another newb and buy dogbones. That's what I did after using mine. They are too short to be long, yet long enough to be annoying on your harness. Horrible size.


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By csproul
From Rancho Cordova, CA
Jun 24, 2013
Summit of Wolf's Head with Pingora in the background

Matt N wrote:
Sell those 12" slings to another newb and buy dogbones. That's what I did after using mine. They are too short to be long, yet long enough to be annoying on your harness. Horrible size.

12" runners are amazingly useful at some of our local crags, especially Moore's wall. The lines are typically straight enough that shoulder length are not required, but a typical dogbone is both too short and too stiff for a lot of the delicate nut placements that come with Moore's wall climbing.

OP, do yourself a favor and get real dogbones if you are doing a lot of sport climbing.


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By NYClimber
From New York
Jun 24, 2013
Awesome slab climb right out of the water! Rogers Rock, Lake George, NY. Summer 2013.

Matt N wrote:
Sell those 12" slings to another newb and buy dogbones. That's what I did after using mine. They are too short to be long, yet long enough to be annoying on your harness. Horrible size.


Yeah you're right guys. I see all your points made. It seems both are specifically made for 2 different types of climbing - sport or trad. I think expecting one style to do BOTH is really a compromise between what both very designed to do. The 12 inch quickdraws are kinda too short to be very effective for much trad use per se - not long enough to do that much good and rack horribly - leaving them hanging down almost to the knee, and the dog bones being too short and stiff for trad.

Guess I will just go out and buy some dog bones for sport use and be done with it.

Thanks for the advice.


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By Joe Palma
From Stouffville, Ontario
Jun 24, 2013

slim wrote:
you can buy the little rubber petzl gaskets for a couple bucks and use one on the clipping biner. leave the bolt biner free.


Not a good idea, you can inadvertently clip the loop above the string and end up with an open loop see Petzl's link

Link to a video on UK Climbing that clearly shows the issue here

Some people have suggested putting a second loop around the captive biner to avoid the open loop issue. Would work to prevent that situation, but may end up loading the biner awkwardly.


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By slim
Administrator
Jun 24, 2013
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.

i think this danger is pretty overblown. the same thing would happen if you didn't have a gasket and somehow managed to backclip the biner on its sling in the same manner. not sure how this would happen but... i guess the one difference is that with the gasket you might not immediately realize it. although i don't see how a person could look at it and not immediately realize that something is amiss....

the 12" slings are kind of an awkward size. i have a couple that i use for the anchor draws. this allows me to keep track of the wear on the rope biners and replace them before they wear into sharp edges.


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By Joe Palma
From Stouffville, Ontario
Jun 24, 2013

slim wrote:
the same thing would happen if you didn't have a gasket and somehow managed to backclip the biner on its sling in the same manner. not sure how this would happen but...


Not sure exactly what you mean here...


slim wrote:
although i don't see how a person could look at it and not immediately realize that something is amiss....


I think that's the problem; some people have assumed a sling with a captive biner is going to be as safe as a quickdraw, not realizing it's got the potential to become a open loop if you're not paying attention.


slim wrote:
the 12" slings are kind of an awkward size.


I use them for racking draws and slings in my pack.


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By csproul
From Rancho Cordova, CA
Jun 24, 2013
Summit of Wolf's Head with Pingora in the background

slim wrote:
i think this danger is pretty overblown. the same thing would happen if you didn't have a gasket and somehow managed to backclip the biner on its sling in the same manner. not sure how this would happen but... i guess the one difference is that with the gasket you might not immediately realize it.

Umm....if you didn't have the string/"gasket"/band there, wouldn't the biner just fall off of the sling. ie it wouldn't be a problem because you'd never be able to clip the sling to anything?


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By slim
Administrator
Jun 24, 2013
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.

that's what i am basically saying - how would the biner end up clipped in that manner under normal circumstances?


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By csproul
From Rancho Cordova, CA
Jun 24, 2013
Summit of Wolf's Head with Pingora in the background

slim wrote:
that's what i am basically saying - how would the biner end up clipped in that manner under normal circumstances?

I disagree. WIthout the string, the biner is completely detached and presents no danger since you could not possibly clip the sling to something else.

safe:
safe
safe


not-safe:
not safe
not safe


Sure, it is obvious if you look carefully before racking, but they look similar enough that you might not notice. As to how it became clipped like this in the first place...Wad a bunch of gear in your pack and stuff just gets tangled and clipped. Weird things happen. I've had the loop on my shoe clip to a quickdraw on my harness while I was climbing. I've fallen and had a quickdraw on my harness clip to the rope lower down on the route. Carabiners just have a strange way of clipping themselves to things you don't intend them to clip to. In this case it could be deadly, and for very little (if any) benefit. If you really want a fixed biner, get rabbit ear type slings or dogbones.


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By BrianWS
Jun 24, 2013

Just use electrical tape to tighten the webbing next to your rope-end biner. Having 12 inch draws in your arsenal is quite handy, especially when climbing routes with small roofs, buldges, or other features that would cause drag with short draws.


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By NYClimber
From New York
Jun 24, 2013
Awesome slab climb right out of the water! Rogers Rock, Lake George, NY. Summer 2013.

BrianWS wrote:
Just use electrical tape to tighten the webbing next to your rope-end biner. Having 12 inch draws in your arsenal is quite handy, especially when climbing routes with small roofs, buldges, or other features that would cause drag with short draws.


I thought of that Brian! Good idea....

I don't do that much sport climbing and when I do - use use my partner's since he has plenty dogbones.

When we climb trad - we use a lot of my quickdraws. However, it would be nice if the ends were just 'gathered' up a bit.

Good idea....I don't thing some tape would be any big deal honestly b/c it isn't going to 'unclip' as a rubberband might.


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By csproul
From Rancho Cordova, CA
Jun 24, 2013
Summit of Wolf's Head with Pingora in the background

NYClimber wrote:
I thought of that Brian! Good idea.... I don't do that much sport climbing and when I do - use use my partner's since he has plenty dogbones. When we climb trad - we use a lot of my quickdraws. However, it would be nice if the ends were just 'gathered' up a bit. Good idea....I don't thing some tape would be any big deal honestly b/c it isn't going to 'unclip' as a rubberband might.

Uhh...wrong. Taped slings present the exact same danger as a band. THe exact same thing can happen. Try it, tape the sling next to the biner to hold the biner tight. Now take the fixed biner and re-clip the sling. Now it is only held in place by the tape. The mechanism is exactly the same. Do this if you want, but understand the risks and inspect your slings often.


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By s.price
From PS,CO
Jun 24, 2013
 Morning Dew ,self portrait

I've used elastic hair bands for years. I clip it through the biner first then make a few tight wraps around the sling then clip the biner through the band again. Going on 34 years of doing this and have never had a problem.


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By BrianWS
Jun 25, 2013

csproul wrote:
Uhh...wrong. Taped slings present the exact same danger as a band. THe exact same thing can happen. Try it, tape the sling next to the biner to hold the biner tight. Now take the fixed biner and re-clip the sling. Now it is only held in place by the tape. The mechanism is exactly the same. Do this if you want, but understand the risks and inspect your slings often.


Technically, this is absolutely true - one can't really argue with the hypothetical risk, as it is there.

That being said, I would consider taping the end of a shorter sling a fairly minimal risk -- yes gear does some funky stuff when packed/unpacked, but it's pretty easy to visually identify a tangled or bunched up draw prior to racking it up on your harness. The shorter the sling, the less likely this could potentially happen and go unnoticed, especially with wider nylon slings like the ones in question. If you were worried enough about it it, you could always tape from the rope-end biner to a point further up the sling to minimize the risk. Or, blow some cash and buy a handful of brand-new, stiff, sewn, and (ostensibly) idiot-proof dogbones.


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By NYClimber
From New York
Jun 25, 2013
Awesome slab climb right out of the water! Rogers Rock, Lake George, NY. Summer 2013.

Yeah I am just going to go out and buy some dogbones and be done with it.

Dogbones for sport climbs and the open 12" quickdraw slings for trad.

Thanks for all the good info!

To me - this is like trying to fly fish with a spinning rod/reel for trout - and it just doesn't work!


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By BSheriden
Jun 25, 2013

s.price wrote:
Going on 34 years of doing this and have never had a problem.


Until you do... Not a very compelling arguement. Its like saying "i havent worn a seat belt for 34 years and have NEVER been in a car accident so its never gonna happen"


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By csproul
From Rancho Cordova, CA
Jun 25, 2013
Summit of Wolf's Head with Pingora in the background

BSheriden wrote:
Until you do... Not a very compelling arguement. Its like saying "i havent worn a seat belt for 34 years and have NEVER been in a car accident so its never gonna happen"

Agreed. In places where the failure of one item has very high consequences, there's never a problem until there's a problem...and then it's too late. I agree that this is something that can be visually inspected, but I also think that it'd be something that could be easy to miss. Just look at the pictures above...they're not THAT different that it'd definitely jump out at you when racking dozens of slings and cams. And the real point is that it is not like the benefit outweighs the risk or it's a risk that can't easily be mitigated by using a different (and cheap!) sling/dogbone.


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By NYClimber
From New York
Jun 25, 2013
Awesome slab climb right out of the water! Rogers Rock, Lake George, NY. Summer 2013.

csproul wrote:
Agreed. In places where the failure of one item has very high consequences, there's never a problem until there's a problem...and then it's too late. I agree that this is something that can be visually inspected, but I also think that it'd be something that could be easy to miss. Just look at the pictures above...they're not THAT different that it'd definitely jump out at you when racking dozens of slings and cams. And the real point is that it is not like the benefit outweighs the risk or it's a risk that can't easily be mitigated by using a different (and cheap!) sling/dogbone.


I am afraid that I have to agree with this - about 'avoiding a problem' before it happens - even IF only a remote chance. I'd rather not take chances over $20-30 of some dogbones.


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By s.price
From PS,CO
Jun 25, 2013
 Morning Dew ,self portrait

BSheriden wrote:
Until you do... Not a very compelling arguement. Its like saying "i havent worn a seat belt for 34 years and have NEVER been in a car accident so its never gonna happen"

Not trying to make a compelling argument(correct spelling) and never said it could not happen. Just an observation which is what the OP asked for. Your seat belt reference is a long stretch.

Shit can happen at any time, even if you are anal about inspecting and maintaining your gear like I am.

Just an observation man. Here's another one akin to your seat belt reference. You could type a million words then blow out a finger while misspelling argument. When I climb I know my gear is safe or it doesn't go on the rack. Of course I spell check as well.


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