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Consolidating the Washington home page
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By Jon Nelson
Administrator
Nov 11, 2013
Me
The Washington State home page has about 70 listed areas, which can make it hard for people to find a place to climb.

I think we should consolidate the areas by clumping groups together.

--> Does anyone here disagree? Any suggestions?

For example, Zekes Wall, Goldbar Boulders, No Name Wall, and Index Town Walls are all near each other. They could fall under a region called "Skykomish Valley" (which would also agree with the grouping in the Sky Valley Guidebook).

And Exit 38, Exit 32, Fee Demo, Farside, and Mt Garfield (under Alpine Lakes) could all be in the region "North Bend Area".

Other groupings would probably help too. Compare Washington's page with that of Arizona or California, and see how much easier it could be for curious Washington climbers.

I can't make any of these changes myself, but if enough people agree on this, we could ask the Washington State administrator.

FLAG
By Pete Spri
Nov 11, 2013
I fully agree.

It's bad that their are specific walls named in the overview. Keep it to regions or "areas", then have those areas subdivided by walls.

Recently I was looking at at and thinking "where is this wall (Julia's Outcrop is what I was looking at)?" You shouldn't be asking that on the homepage. It should help you ID it by region.

edit: I would start by clicking on the map link mountainproject.com/scripts/Ar...
and then group the ones areas that are close regionally. IE, group N.cascades with Mazama climbing. Wenatchee area cragging. Okanogan climbing, Banks lake region, etc.

FLAG
By Brett Thompson
From Washington State
Nov 12, 2013
Def. not a bad idea John. As Chris stated there is a mess going on with the Bellingham area section on the Washington page. Furthermore, the greater skagit area is a mess too. Redoing the WA page to run more like Cali or Arizona would be cool, but would also require sorting a ton of smaller areas that have emerged.

FLAG
By Daniel Coltrane
From Seattle, WA
Nov 12, 2013
I agree as well Jon. I tried to express my desire to make some changes to the Darrignton page a while back and got little response. That page could defiently be broken down into a more well organized set up, i.e. clear creek and Squire creek with sub areas of three o'clock, green giant, and exfo dome, as well as squire creek wall/illusion wall, and waterfall basin, as I am hoping to add more to it in the future. This could also be put into a catagory like Mt. loop area or something like that; areas like Spring Mt. could be added as well as climbs like Darins new clip up on Vesper, The mule on Big four, and even the Tower Route at Big four. I think these climbs would get lost without an area grouping like Mt. Loop highway to direct people that way, and to let them know there is climbing in that area.

FLAG
By btustison
From Tacoma, Washington
Nov 19, 2013
Sounds like a good move.

FLAG
By Pete Spri
Nov 25, 2013
some admin make this happen!

FLAG
By DrApnea
From Wenatchee, WA
Nov 25, 2013
argreed!

Maybe we need some bad language/rule #1 violations here to get admin attention. Who wants to start it off?

FLAG
By Jon Nelson
Administrator
Nov 25, 2013
Me
So, I was just given admin. status for WA to make the changes.

But please continue to be patient! I am on a trip and won't have time until right after Thanksgiving.

But keep the consolidating suggestions coming - I will get to them in time.


I might just start with the areas mentioned above. For example,
Skykomish Valley
North Bend Area
Wenatchee Area
Okanagan Region
Skagit Valley
Mountain Loop Highway
Bellingham Area
.
.
.

--> Do you think the state should ultimately be broken up into large areas as they have for Arizona? (Arizona is broken up into Northern, Central, and Southern.)

Jon

FLAG
 
By Pete Spri
Nov 25, 2013
Yes, it should be larger, IMO.

I'd have the Olympics as it's own thing.

Ah, heck, let's see if I can do a modified picture, heh.

FLAG
By Nick Wilder
Site Landlord
From The Bubble
Nov 26, 2013
Personal Photo
Something to consider, though not critical:

The areas within a state (like the ones you are talking about changing) are what make up "data packages" for the mobile app. If you make them really big, that might make them a bit of a hassle to install on the app. On the other hand, if they're really small, you have to install a bunch of them, which is also a hassle...

FLAG
By Pete Spri
Nov 26, 2013
Here's a map I modified.

1- Coastal / Olympics <br />2- Southwestern Cascades / Rainier <br />3- Central Western Cascades / Index + North Bend <br />4- Northwestern / N.Cascades + Darrington + Mt. Erie <br />5- Central Eastern Cascades / Leavenworth + Wenatchee Area <br />6- Southeastern Cascades / Tieton <br />7- Central WA / Frenchman's Coulee + Banks Lake + Potholes <br />8- Okanogan /  <br />9- Northeastern WA / Spokane Area + Marcus + China Bend <br />10- Southeastern WA / Blue Mountains + Snake River
1- Coastal / Olympics
2- Southwestern Cascades / Rainier
3- Central Western Cascades / Index + North Bend
4- Northwestern / N.Cascades + Darrington + Mt. Erie
5- Central Eastern Cascades / Leavenworth + Wenatchee Area
6- Southeastern Cascades / Tieton
7- Central WA / Frenchman's Coulee + Banks Lake + Potholes
8- Okanogan /
9- Northeastern WA / Spokane Area + Marcus + China Bend
10- Southeastern WA / Blue Mountains + Snake River

FLAG
By Pete Spri
Nov 26, 2013
To help sort what I know for the above map, to at least get this started (I am copy/pasting from the WASHINGTON main page):

Region # - Climbing Area
? If there is a question on the area?
  • ****************************************

1 - COASTAL / OLYMPIC
1 - Olympia (3)
1 - Olympia Area Bouldering (2)
1 - Olympic National Park (12)
1 - Chimacum Rock (aks Tamanous Rock, Big Rock) (5)

2 - SOUTH WESTERN CASCADES
2 - Ozone (59)
2 - Farside (69)
2 - Beacon Rock (0) - See Oregon: Portland Area (FAIL!)
2 - Fossil Rock (29)
2 - Little Tahoma (0)
2 - Mount Rainier (12)
2 - Mount St. Helens (2)


3 - CENTRAL WESTERN CASCADES
3 - ?Snoqualmie Pass (5)
3 - Zeke's Wall (10)
3 - UW Rock (2)
3 - Exit 32 / Little Si (71)
3 - Exit 38 / Deception Crags & Mt Washington (92)
3 - Exit 38/ Far Side (81)
3 - Index Town Walls (315)
3 - Gold Bar Boulders (125)
3 - Fee Demo Wall (4)

4 - NORTH WESTERN WA
4 - Mount Erie (75)
4 - deception pass (0)
4 - Darrington (15)
4 - Bellingham Area Climbing (54)
4 - Newhalem (11)
4 - North Cascades (63)
4 - Cumberland Crags (35)
4 - Julia's Outcrop (13)
4 - Newhalem (11)

5 - CENTRAL EASTERN CASCADES
5 - Stehekin (1)
5 - Leavenworth (637)


6 - SOUTH EASTERN CASCADES
6 - Tieton River (116)
6 - ?Horsethief Butte (1)

7 - CENTRAL WA
7 - Banks Lake / Northrup Canyon (24)
7 - Vantage (Frenchman Coulee) (289)
7 - ?Add Potholes

8 - OKANOGAN
8 - Whistler Canyon Trailhead (Oroville) (78)
8 - Toats Coulee - Middle Fork (10)
8 - Burge Mountain (Tonasket) (61)
8 - Mazama (63)
8 - McLaughlin Canyon (Tonasket) (0)
8 - Mount Hull - Lower SW Face (Oroville) (51)

9 - NORTH EASTERN WA
9 - Spokane Area (209)
9 - China Bend (1)
9 - Marcus (4)
9 - ? (or Okanogan?) Kettle Valley (Curlew) (80)
9 - Metaline Falls (1)

10 - SOUTH EASTERN WA
10 - Granite Point (10)
10 - Dikes, The (4)

FLAG
By Pete Spri
Nov 26, 2013
I'll update that as needed. I didn't get all of them in there, but that is a pretty good start.

I'm not sure where the line should be for NW WA and Central Western Wa. Seems like Index should be in with the Seattle Area stuff, as should Si and exit 32/38.

Anyhow, open for discussion.

FLAG
By Jon Nelson
Administrator
Nov 26, 2013
Me
Fantastic map Spri, I think that is a good balance between having regions being too large (as Nick was warning about) and having them too small.

I can see how sub-clumping would help as well, for example for dividing the regions in the "Central Western Cascades" into regions reached from HW 2 (i.e., the Sky Valley) and those from I90 (i.e., North Bend Area, Snoqualmie Pass).

We can modify the boundaries if needed, but that looks like a great start -- many thanks. I'll get on it after T-day.

Mind if we use the map image you made?

FLAG
By Eric Hirst
Nov 26, 2013
Really nice to see this happening -- Thanks Jon and Spri!

Should WA Pass cragging be in the same group as Mazama and Winthrop? I could go either way on this. On one hand, the Methow is a climbing hub and WA Pass is part of that hub. On the other hand, it would be really hard to draw a good physical line between the Early Winters Spires and more remote N. Cascades destinations.

-Eric

FLAG
By cnadel
Nov 26, 2013
I think the Farside(69) refers to the Ozone area Far Side, not the Exit 38 Far Side crags.

FLAG
 
By Pete Spri
Nov 26, 2013
Eric Hirst wrote:
Really nice to see this happening -- Thanks Jon and Spri! Should WA Pass cragging be in the same group as Mazama and Winthrop? I could go either way on this. On one hand, the Methow is a climbing hub and WA Pass is part of that hub. On the other hand, it would be really hard to draw a good physical line between the Early Winters Spires and more remote N. Cascades destinations. -Eric


I think that we should discuss decisions like this.

Personally, I think keeping regions seperated by mountain divides makes the most sense, since Mazama is much more sunny/warm/dry than Washington Pass. My thought is to keep it West side of the divide and East side of the divide, erring to stuff right at Passes as stuff on the West side, so that people can pick colder/wetter vs warmer/dryer climate-based climbing.

I was also thinking, maybe just have a big circle along the whole cascade crest and label it "Alpine", but that doesn't really seem help with things like Icicle Creek and Index, since they aren't really alpine style routes. Hmm.

FLAG
By Pete Spri
Nov 26, 2013
Jon Nelson wrote:
Fantastic map Spri, I think that is a good balance between having regions being too large (as Nick was warning about) and having them too small. I can see how sub-clumping would help as well, for example for dividing the regions in the "Central Western Cascades" into regions reached from HW 2 (i.e., the Sky Valley) and those from I90 (i.e., North Bend Area, Snoqualmie Pass). We can modify the boundaries if needed, but that looks like a great start -- many thanks. I'll get on it after T-day. Mind if we use the map image you made?


Hey thanks for the compliment :D By all means use the map.

I also meant to ask, do you guys think that we should name the regions differently? Maybe instead of something like "Southeastern Cascades" it could be better to name it something like "Yakima Region"? Same goes for "Central Western Cascade"... maybe "King-county" or "Seattle-based Region"? Maybe go with something more simple for naming purposes?

FLAG
By Jon Nelson
Administrator
Nov 29, 2013
Me
So, we now have Spri's 10 Washington Areas.

Spri - could you repost your map onto the WA page?
(I couldn't see a way to just shift it over, and if I repost a saved image, it will be credited to me. )

On the map, maybe you could switch the numbers to letter codes. For example
CR = Central Region
CE = Central-east Cascades
CW
NE
NW
OK
O-PC
SE-Y
SE
SW

Perhaps the OK (Okanogan) region could extend over to the western side of the Columbia?

About Mazama, it is now in the OK region, following Spri's thought that it fit the general climate of OK better than the much wetter NW.

Let me know if I misplaced some area. About the names, I added a city name if I thought that might help people to quickly identify a region.

FLAG
By Jon Nelson
Administrator
Nov 29, 2013
Me
Perhaps the "Northwest Region" could instead be
"North Cascades & NW Lowlands" given that the North Cascades are a famous region of Washington.

FLAG
By Pete Spri
Nov 30, 2013
Hey Jon-

Amazing work cleaning that up! The sub-division is awesome for finding routes! Thanks for all your work doing that!

I updated that photo. I need to go through it one more time; I may not have gotten all the letter codes completely right to match your written regional descriptions.

Anyway, quick drop in to say Kudos.

PS- Once we get that picture finalized, is there a way to pin it to the top, next to the picture of Rainier? Or at the beginning of the photos section? Keeping it visible for newbies would probably help a lot.

FLAG
By DrApnea
From Wenatchee, WA
Nov 30, 2013
I don't know if this issue is new since makin the changes or not, but I can't seem to find Washington at all in the iOS application to download the areas

FLAG
By Jon Nelson
Administrator
Nov 30, 2013
Me
Hey it was basically just a quick matter of following your suggestions, but you're welcome.

I don't know anything about the iOS feature. Maybe things will somehow get reset within a day? I've noticed how the route count takes a day to update.

Spri wrote:
PS- Once we get that picture finalized, is there a way to pin it to the top, next to the picture of Rainier? Or at the beginning of the photos section? Keeping it visible for newbies would probably help a lot.


I should be able to move the map to the top photo, replacing the present one of Rainier. Will do that soon - I am on another short trip.

Let me know about other things that should be changed. I will look into the Bellingham stuff soon.

Jon

FLAG
By DrApnea
From Wenatchee, WA
Dec 1, 2013
No WA section on app now
No WA
No WA

FLAG
 
By DrApnea
From Wenatchee, WA
Dec 1, 2013
A couple other things with the changes that need to be addressed:

1) can't access Washington anymore from the iphone app

2) Organizational changes aren't reflected on the main MP page when you scroll down below the map.

3) Central East Cascades & Wenatchee: As of right now it seems that Central Cascades Eastside should just be called subareas of Leavenworth and 3 other climbs nobody knows because within this region there are only 3 choices (Stehekin which has one route and no description on how to get there, Demilitarized zone which has 2 climbs and no pictures, and then Leavenworth which has over 600 climbs and multiple sub areas). My choice would be to pull some of the sub areas out of Leavenworth and place them in the main east central cascades region. Peshastin can be moved up since it isn't in Leavenworth and closer to Cashmere/Wenatchee anyway. I think most will agree on this. Then comes whether to move the Stuart Range out of the Leavenworth subsection and put it in the higher region (Central East Cascades) since it can be accessed from the Cle Elum side or Leavenworth side anyway and will make it easier to find if someone is browsing regions looking for this huge mountain range. If it should stay in the Leavenworth heading, why wouldn't it be buried deeper in the Icicle Creek part since that is where it gets accessed from anyway?
With these moves, it would leave Leavenworth with Icicle Creek, Tumwater, and Bouldering.

I think making these changes will reduce the number of sub categories required to find the climbs you actually want and streamline things.
Opinions?

FLAG
By Jon Nelson
Administrator
Dec 1, 2013
Me
Thanks DrApnea.

I don't know what to do about 1 & 2, but will notify someone more capable about these problems.

I agree on 3). It did seem strange when I noticed Peshastin and the Stuart Range lumped in with Leavenworth. If nobody has any objections in the next few days, I'll go ahead with the change.

Post edit: After looking at the main MP page (re: 2), I think the deal with the listings below the map is that they intentionally have a different organization. Here, they list the more popular climbing areas, wherever they may come from in the state. So, this does not seem to be a problem. (Note that the same thing happens with Arizona if you compare this page with the Arizona homepage.)

FLAG


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