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Confusion on how to use a daisy chain for cleaning a sport climb
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By JacobD
From Flagstaff, AZ
Aug 10, 2006
Me on Half Dome Boulder, Middle Finger of Fury <br /> <br />Awesome problem!
Recently it has been brought to my attention by a friend that I may be using my daisy chain wrong. I clip it through the end of the daisy and then into the anchor, next I clip through one of the loops into the same caribiner to adjust it. My friend uses two caribiners one through the end and one through the adjustable loop. Now I understand redundancy is always good, but I don't think the way I do it is unsafe. He refered me to a video on bdel.com on how to use daisy chains and it showed a caribiner completely coming out of the daisy when a loop blew. I attempted the same test as they used and it didn't blow out. I'm really confused, does anyone have any input on how they use it?

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By Chris Kidwell
Aug 10, 2006
When you short clip a daisy as you described in your re-inactment, you have a 50/50 chance of doing it incorrectly. It is hard to describe on screen.

My personal suggestion is to have one end of the daisy girth hitched to your harness (preferably through the same loops you would tie your rope to). Then when anchoring, only clip one loop (at your desired length) to the carabiner. For redundancy, clip the end loop to the other anchor bolt using another locking biner.

The only problem with this system is that you will NOT be equalized between the two anchor points, thus relying on one bolt for your full protection. If this bolt were to blow, it would shockload the other bolt.

If this is still confusing, id be more than happy to meet you at the gym or crag one night to demonstrate how the daisy can fail if a loop blows while you are shortclipped. I have demonstrated this several times to friends and partners.

PM me for more info.

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS ONLY A SUGGESTION FOR USING A DAISY. NOT A PROFESSIONAL OPINION OR FACT.

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By Chris Kidwell
Aug 10, 2006
Just a side note, if you cant re-enact this, and dont fully understand what happens, I would suggest NOT using the daisy to clean routes.

TWO slings with locking biners should work fine.

Chris

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By Jacob Neathawk
From Nederland, CO
Aug 10, 2006
My first comment is not directly related to the situation mentioned above, but i feel that daisy chains are often used incorectly when cleaning sport routes but more so when anchoring into the belay on a multi pitch route. This bugs me so thats why i thought it would be a worthwhile point to mention. I dont really understand why people use daisy's to anchor into the belay while also anchored in their end of the rope, clove hitched on a biner and then clipped to the belay? The rope is much stronger than the daisy. It seems silly to back up the rope with something not as strong as the rope.

Im not sure i agree with the above suggestions either as to the correct way to clean a sport route. If there are draws on the anchors, i think it would make more sense to clip the end loop of the daisy into both draws so that the climbers weight is equalized on both bolts of the anchors. Another biner could be used to connect the desired loops of the daisy to achieve a comfortable stance to untie and rethread the anchors. The stiching on most daisys is only rated for a 2kn load (i.e. body weight). I dont understand why anyone would make a post suggesting a correct way to clean any route would be to anchor in to one bolt with the possibility of shock loading the other one when the 2kn strength loop youre hanging on blows?

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By Peter Franzen
Administrator
From Phoenix, AZ
Aug 10, 2006
Belay
I've stopped using daisys entirely for connecting myself to an anchor.

On a multipitch route I use a shoulder-length sling girth-hitched to my belay loop to one bolt or connection point, and the rope clove-hitched to a locking 'biner to the other. It's easy to equalize and half of it is dynamic, for whatever that's worth.

For cleaning an anchor I use the same girth-hitched sling and a double-length quickdraw with a locking 'biner.

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By Jerome Stiller
From Golden CO
Aug 10, 2006
after a long approach
ah, one of my pet peeves (and one still seen quite frequently at the crags...)

DON"T USE A DAISY CHAIN TO CLIP YOUR SELF INTO THE ANCHORS.

EVER.

NOT EVER.

JUST DON'T OKAY?

The reasons being: a) the manufacturer says, right in the instructions "BODY WEIGHT ONLY - DO NOT USE TO ATTACH TO ANCHORS" - isn't that reason enough?; b) all the reasons already cited here (and elsewhere); c)for mulitpitch climbing, it is always better to just tie in with the rope (which is dynamic and therefore well designed to absorb/limit/decrease a load) rather than any kind of sling (which is static and therefore not well designed to absorb/limit/decrease a load); and d)for sport climbing, especially when anchor cleaning and/or rope retrieval is the task at hand, the Metolious PAS is *THE* tool made for the job.

I generally spank anyone I see that uses a daisy to tie into an anchor. Although some folks appear to like being spanked *way* too much....

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By Buff Johnson
Aug 10, 2006
smiley face
Jacob, DITTO what Jerome just posted for free climbing.

The daisy was intended for aid climbing.

I've also the PAS, works for everything I need.

When I need a daisy, it's because I'm using gear ascent or ascenders on a fixed line. I just add a daisy for my top jumar; then use the PAS as my lower jumar harness tie-in. I try to get away from even using the daisy on an aid lead because it's easy to forget to unclip it and let the rope take over for a fall (this is a little off post).

The PAS is so versatile, works for cleaning a sport anchor using both bolts (though this is not total independent redundancy from your harness to the anchor, it's within my acceptance of risk unless rockfall is a concern that could cut the PAS as a single sling); And, while being tied into the fixed anchor you can the weight test your rap device & release off the anchor simple & safe. There are other climbing applications that can be used for the PAS outside of cleaning a sport anchor, making the PAS all the more versatile.

Here's some more discussion about tie-ins:
mountainproject.com/v/climbing...
mountainproject.com/v/climbing...

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By Rob "Roberto" Dowse
From Albuquerque, NM
Aug 11, 2006
In The Bugaboos
Beating the dead horse I'll say the rope is always my primary tie in to the anchor. My Daisy (or cow tail or sling or whatever) is not so much a back up but works as my last clip in point when the leader has put me on belay and I am cleaning the anchor. IE I have the daisy clipped to the last piece I am going to pull so that the leader can have all of the slack pulled in on the rope...

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By climberz
Jul 28, 2007
Daisys are for aid climbing, not anchoring.

My BD daisy instructions said 600 lbs (kn) per loop and 1200 for the whole sling. This is only half the strength of a sling. Also I could never understand why people often only clip in with one daisy and one biner to one of the two anchor bolts. I don't trust one piece to my life. One biner, one sling, and one anchor are not enough.

Many times when the rope gets pulled on multiple rappels the rope runs over tie in slings at high speed. This compromises the strength of the slings. During normal climbing use the possibility of wearing through the sewing of the sling also exists (skinner?).

I usually tie in with the rope. A clove hitch through a locker, and a loop of slack to a figure eight on a bite cliped through a different biner. This allows my distance from the anchor to be adjusted and still be backed up and tied though two points always.

I have also been unclipped at least three times from the anchor by experienced partners thinking they were unclipping themsevles. By being attached twice (two knots through separate biners for the rope, two slings into seperate anchors, or two daisies with seperate biners into separate anchors, you can cover your ass. Also watching when anyone messes with the anchor.

Bottom line: two is better than one. Back yourself up.

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By Buff Johnson
Jul 29, 2007
smiley face
zack d wrote:
.... During normal climbing use the possibility of wearing through the sewing of the sling also exists (skinner?). ..


No, he used his harness well beyond the manufacturer's recommended life & his belay loop gave out. We're talking about extensive use, too.

Comparing day in & day out wall work & hauling that wears on a harness and fear of sling & belay loop failure to clean a sport anchor need to be put in proper context.

Unless rockfall is some sort of concern, I've no problem using the PAS as a single sling anchor tie-in clipped to both bolts to clean an anchor. My concern is a chincy bolt blowing, not the tie-in -- certainly good to say keep the tie-in in good condition & replace when recommended.

If there really is a concern with using a single sling anchor tie-in; say people are working, hiking, walking, etc. on top of the crag and I have a pretty fair idea rockfall could happen - then I'd use the quickdraws for another tie-in and make myself totally redundant.

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By Avery N
From Boulder, CO
Jul 29, 2007
Canadian Rockies Ice 2008.
Daisy chains were designed for the purpose of aid climbing. Period. I'm sure this will rub many 'believers' the wrong way, but is true.

Get a PAS or a shoulder length runner.

The BDEL video used tape to simulate the stitches, so as to lower the effective strength of the 'daisy' for the purpose of illustrating their point. Yours won't rip so easily, but will rip easily if it's loaded as part of the anchor and a strong impact comes on teh anchor. Still, is that what you want your life tied into? Save daisys for aiding and reduce the complexity of your systems by not having a piece of gear that 'can only be used correctly one way'.

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By JacobD
From Flagstaff, AZ
Jul 30, 2007
Me on Half Dome Boulder, Middle Finger of Fury <br /> <br />Awesome problem!
I'm surprised to see such an old post (about a year ago) be drug back up. Anyway I'm glad that my friend alerted me of this, because since I have corrected many others. I currently don't really climb sport anymore so I mostly just make a master point on the anchor and clove hitch my rope into that. But for sport I just use an 8 foot sling with a knot tied in the middle of it. Thanks for all the replies. I think that it is soooo common in our sport for bad habits to be taught and carried on. No one wants to admit the way that they learned (sometimes from sources that are supposed to be credible) is wrong. I think as a young climber the most important thing I have learned is to keep an open mind and always listen to other climbers. Although it is true there is more than one right way to do many things, just as long as it is safe. Thanks again.

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By saxfiend
Administrator
From Decatur, GA
Jul 30, 2007
Relaxing at the P1 belay of Fruit Loops at Rumbling Bald.
I see these postings come up periodically, where someone asks about using a daisy chain at an anchor and gets numerous responses telling them they shouldnít be doing this. In all the threads Iíve seen on this subject, I donít think Iíve ever seen a cogent explanation for why the daisy chain shouldnít be used this way. Being a relative noob, I would normally be willing to take this advice without question, except for the fact that my friends who are grizzled trad veterans have been using their daisies at the anchor for years without any catastrophic results. So whoís right?

If this really is a bad or unsafe practice, Iím ready and willing to change my ways. But before I do, Iíd like to see a solid rationale for why itís unsafe. In order to avoid antagonizing anyone who is on the anti-daisy side of the issue, Iíll pose my questions and devilís advocacy as a sort of pseudo-Platonic dialogue:

SOCRATES: Let me state the opening premise: daisy chains are meant only for aid climbing and should never be used to connect you to an anchor.
SAXFIEND: Okay. Why?
SOC: A daisy chain is designed to hold body weight only.
SAX: Unless Iím missing something, body weight is exactly what my daisy is holding when Iím clipped to the anchor. If thereís any practical difference between hanging off a piece of pro on a daisy and hanging off an anchor on a daisy, it eludes me.
SOC: The daisy is static. If you fall on it, youíll shock load the anchor, possibly causing it to fail.
SAX: Agreed. Thatís why I never put myself in a position of falling on it. I donít climb above a clipped daisy or allow any slack in it.
SOC: The loops on the daisy chain are only rated at 2Kn. If you put enough force on it, the loops can rip, again causing shock load on the anchor.
SAX: As I said before, I make sure not to fall on my daisy or otherwise put the kind of force on it that would cause a loop to rip. But in any case, the daisy chain isnít my only connection to the anchor; I also clove hitch in separately with the climbing rope.
SOC: If the piece your climbing rope is hitched to blows, youíll shock load the anchor with your daisy.
SAX: Not if thereís no slack in the daisy. I always adjust my daisy so itís even with the rope tie-in (or if thereís any slack at all, itís on the rope side).
SOC: Using a Metolius PAS is preferable to using a daisy chain to anchor.
SAX: Whatís the advantage?
SOC: Each loop of the PAS is a full-strength, independent runner. This is far less likely to fail than the sewn loops in a daisy chain.
SAX: That makes sense. But apart from that, all the negatives cited about the daisy chain (itís non-dynamic; a fall on it will shock load the anchor) would seem to apply to the PAS as well. And if one or more loops on a daisy blows, youíve got at least a decent chance of the rest of the rig catching you like a screamer, whereas if any one loop on the PAS blows, the whole thing fails. If I were going to trust my life to a single anchor attachment (which I definitely wouldnít), I would be inclined to take my chances with the daisy chain.
SOC: The manufacturer specifically states that the daisy chain shouldnít be used to attach to the anchor. Do you think you know more than they do?
SAX: Nope. I would assume they have a good reason for stating that. But Iíd like to hear the reason, since nothing Iíve heard so far has convinced me that itís bad. On the other hand, hereís an alternative view from a gear manufacturer (Russ Walling): "Daisy chains, when used properly, have tons of uses, including in and around the anchor. If you know what they can and can't do, your chances of survival are higher, but I hardly see stiffs stacked at the base of routes like cord wood from daisy failure."
SOC: Is that something you want to take a chance on?
SAX: Why not? Do you know of any instances where a daisy chain actually has failed when used at an anchor or caused anchor failure due to shockloading?
SOC: I canít cite any specific examples, but thatís only because Iím a literary device created by you for the purpose of a fictional dialogue. Iím sure that if there are such incidents, someone on this board will step forward and tell about them.

So now that you know my thinking behind using the daisy chain, please tell me where Iím wrong or what Iím missing. As I said before, Iím open-minded and will stop using it if Iím convinced itís unsafe.

JL

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By Buff Johnson
Jul 30, 2007
smiley face
I guess this is why I feel the way I do about anchor tie-ins and using daisies - they used to not be rated at the main stitch point & people take the "sport anchor mentality"* and think it's okay to apply it to multi-pitch climbing while belaying a leader; and I don't think this is okay.

The un-rated daisies were marketed extensively during a transition from aid to free climbing, with companies knowing full well the leader fall energy is tremendously different/greater/more likely than in aid climbs, these companies just used a quick disclaimer to try and absolve any responsibility to the free-climbing market, and I don't think that was okay, either.

So, if I get gigged for essentially preaching about anchor tie-in redundancy (even if the application is just at the sport anchor with body weight), so be it; I'd much rather get gigged than see some climbers come into a place like Eldo and get ripped off the wall.


(* I guess I'll define that as using the mindset of what a 1/2 pitch sport climb offers is always applicable to multi-pitch climbing; like using a daisy as a single point tie-in, because a person won't get seperate equipment for a different application, the'll more than likely just use the daisy, and since the rope doesn't really get used as a tie-in at the sport anchor either; well there you go) -- Granted, I understand full well this is a sport climbing topic; but I see this go right into multi-pitch climbing without any thought.



ps - As for getting dramatic; this is just the way I feel about this situation & how it evolved over time in CO, I get into it sometimes; but I'm not gonna go around and crag-police experienced climbers.

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By John Hegyes
From Las Vegas, NV
Jul 30, 2007
South of Windy Peak
Saxfiend:
WELL SAID. THANK YOU.

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By Avery N
From Boulder, CO
Jul 30, 2007
Canadian Rockies Ice 2008.
SAXANGEL: Kinda interesting up here in these clouds. A lot more exposure than on that hairy rock climb we did back in 2006.
SOC: How come you're not still climbing?
SAXANGEL: Well, we were in a real rush to get up on this climb because of the lightning and I didn't have time to equalize everything, so I clipped my daisy into a cam, and clove-hitched my rope to two nuts equalized on a short sling. I don't usually do that and knew better. My partner took a whipper on the runout section immediately above the belay when it started raining, and the nuts ripped. The daisy didn't hold for crap, and I forgot to add the 1/2 twist.
SOC: Bummer

Point: Admit to it or not, people DO (mis)use a daisy as part of their anchor, even if not the primary piece. It happens and is evidenced when you go to the crag. I use my tie-in piece as part of the anchor all the time, for expediency.

Why bother using something that is only partial strength and can only be used in one way (with the extra 1/2 twist).

Go simple and full strength and don't worry about having to remember more crap than is necessary. All of our minds are already full of other useless crap; why add more complexity to life, climbing, and decrease your chances of living if the sh** hits the fan?

Why bother using 3/8" bolts when 1/4" bolts are mostly-usually fine?

Just my personal $0.02, and the end of my rant. Do what suits you best.

PS -- Just a guess, but Russ, being a wall climber, was probably accustomed tied into 3+ places at all times -- but you'd have to ask to know for sure.

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By caughtinside
From Oakland CA
Jul 30, 2007
saxfiend wrote:
I see these postings come up periodically, where someone asks about using a daisy chain at an anchor and gets numerous responses telling them they shouldnít be doing this. In all the threads Iíve seen on this subject, I donít think Iíve ever seen a cogent explanation for why the daisy chain shouldnít be used this way. Being a relative noob, I would normally be willing to take this advice without question, except for the fact that my friends who are grizzled trad veterans have been using their daisies at the anchor for years without any catastrophic results. So whoís right? If this really is a bad or unsafe practice, Iím ready and willing to change my ways. But before I do, Iíd like to see a solid rationale for why itís unsafe. In order to avoid antagonizing anyone who is on the anti-daisy side of the issue, Iíll pose my questions and devilís advocacy as a sort of pseudo-Platonic dialogue: SOCRATES: Let me state the opening premise: daisy chains are meant only for aid climbing and should never be used to connect you to an anchor. SAXFIEND: Okay. Why? SOC: A daisy chain is designed to hold body weight only. SAX: Unless Iím missing something, body weight is exactly what my daisy is holding when Iím clipped to the anchor. If thereís any practical difference between hanging off a piece of pro on a daisy and hanging off an anchor on a daisy, it eludes me. SOC: The daisy is static. If you fall on it, youíll shock load the anchor, possibly causing it to fail. SAX: Agreed. Thatís why I never put myself in a position of falling on it. I donít climb above a clipped daisy or allow any slack in it. SOC: The loops on the daisy chain are only rated at 2Kn. If you put enough force on it, the loops can rip, again causing shock load on the anchor. SAX: As I said before, I make sure not to fall on my daisy or otherwise put the kind of force on it that would cause a loop to rip. But in any case, the daisy chain isnít my only connection to the anchor; I also clove hitch in separately with the climbing rope. SOC: If the piece your climbing rope is hitched to blows, youíll shock load the anchor with your daisy. SAX: Not if thereís no slack in the daisy. I always adjust my daisy so itís even with the rope tie-in (or if thereís any slack at all, itís on the rope side). SOC: Using a Metolius PAS is preferable to using a daisy chain to anchor. SAX: Whatís the advantage? SOC: Each loop of the PAS is a full-strength, independent runner. This is far less likely to fail than the sewn loops in a daisy chain. SAX: That makes sense. But apart from that, all the negatives cited about the daisy chain (itís non-dynamic; a fall on it will shock load the anchor) would seem to apply to the PAS as well. And if one or more loops on a daisy blows, youíve got at least a decent chance of the rest of the rig catching you like a screamer, whereas if any one loop on the PAS blows, the whole thing fails. If I were going to trust my life to a single anchor attachment (which I definitely wouldnít), I would be inclined to take my chances with the daisy chain. SOC: The manufacturer specifically states that the daisy chain shouldnít be used to attach to the anchor. Do you think you know more than they do? SAX: Nope. I would assume they have a good reason for stating that. But Iíd like to hear the reason, since nothing Iíve heard so far has convinced me that itís bad. On the other hand, hereís an alternative view from a gear manufacturer (Russ Walling): "Daisy chains, when used properly, have tons of uses, including in and around the anchor. If you know what they can and can't do, your chances of survival are higher, but I hardly see stiffs stacked at the base of routes like cord wood from daisy failure." SOC: Is that something you want to take a chance on? SAX: Why not? Do you know of any instances where a daisy chain actually has failed when used at an anchor or caused anchor failure due to shockloading? SOC: I canít cite any specific examples, but thatís only because Iím a literary device created by you for the purpose of a fictional dialogue. Iím sure that if there are such incidents, someone on this board will step forward and tell about them. So now that you know my thinking behind using the daisy chain, please tell me where Iím wrong or what Iím missing. As I said before, Iím open-minded and will stop using it if Iím convinced itís unsafe. JL


Mr. Fiend, that was an enjoyable exchange, thanks for posting.

In reply, here are my reasons for not using a DC. I used to use one, but changed my ways.

It's not the best tool for the job. 2kn pockets? You talk a good game about never putting yourself in a spot where you'd slip, put the slightest shock load on a daisy pocket, etc. I believe that to be hogwash. Basically that means you are weighting the daisy at all times. you never lean in to do something, you never get on your tip toes to adjust something up high.

What is a better tool? IMO, a standard nylon sling. what do you need the pockets for to shorten? They'll blow under an insignificant load. Just clip straight to the end of the sling. If you want to shorten it, put an overhand in the sling.

But it all doesn't matter if you're in on the rope anyway. On a sport route I'll just chain quickdraws.

naturally I'ts all personal preference, but I really don't see the advantage to daisys. I don't need to adjust minutely per pocket, and the pockets are jingus anyway. And it's an excuse to bring more slings, which are useful for all sorts of wonderful things.

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By Buff Johnson
Jul 30, 2007
smiley face
saxfiend wrote:
... Being a relative noob, I would normally be willing to take this advice without question, except for the fact that my friends who are grizzled trad veterans have been using their daisies at the anchor for years without any catastrophic results. So who�s right? ... JL


Basically the way I see it is that the true measure of the system has never really been put to the test; it's just that they haven't ever full-on impacted the anchor. But, since they've been doin it for 20+ years, it's right. I'd say, yes, using the mindset of never EVER falling on the anchor is the best way to become a trad vet; absolutely, I'd agree with that; but to take that mindset and tell everyone this is a redundant safety system should the anchor take a full-on hit is not something I'd agree with.

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By Jeff Fiedler
Jul 30, 2007
Saxfiend:

I think your points help put the risk of using a DC for anchor tie-in, etc., in perspective: its not a huge risk or we'd be hearing more about it in accident reports...so folks shouldn't freak out when someone uses one. (Helmets and rappel backups would really save a lot more lives, injuries, right?)

But to me it seems that a PAS does eliminate a small but real risk, for an extra $10-15, and no significant downside. So why not use a PAS over a DC? I don't see anything in your post that shows a PAS creating any other tradeoff or risk.

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By Richard Radcliffe
From Louisville, CO
Jul 30, 2007
I agree with Jeff, Mark, and others who are on the more or less anti-DC side of things. The risk of serious failure when using a DC as an anchor attachment is probably miniscule, especially for cleaning a sport climb. The risk goes up a little bit in a multi-pitch trad situation in which there's a higher probability of putting unexpected loads on the anchor system, loads which can be in excess of what the DC was designed for. In any case, I retired my old DC and now use a PAS. I find it to be much more user-friendly and its little bit of a safety edge removes that much more clutter from the mind.

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By Richard Radcliffe
From Louisville, CO
Jul 30, 2007
BTW, who ever thought a belay loop would fail...?

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By Richard Radcliffe
From Louisville, CO
Jul 30, 2007
OK, I'll respond to my own post. Of course, the unfortunate Todd Skinner situation was a little different. He was using a piece of equipment correctly, but whose prime had long since past. Which actually means that he was using a piece of gear in a situation for which it was no longer designed. Why push the limits when safer alternatives are available? Even if the margin is negligible, cross it and it's unlikely you'll get a second chance.

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By saxfiend
Administrator
From Decatur, GA
Jul 30, 2007
Relaxing at the P1 belay of Fruit Loops at Rumbling Bald.
Glad to read the responses.
Avery Nelson wrote:
[snip]so I clipped my daisy into a cam, and clove-hitched my rope to two nuts equalized on a short sling.

HAHA! If I were ever to set up an "anchor" as retarded as that (only two points; primary tie-in to the weakest link; etc.), I'd have to say I deserved to take the long ride. Be that as it may, do you really think I'd have come out of something like that alive if I substituted a PAS or a girth-hitched sling for the daisy chain? I don't.

For what it's worth, most of the multi-pitch climbing I do these days is on doubles, so I just use the two ropes for my anchor tie-ins and the daisy chain is irrelevant. I still use it anytime I'm climbing on a single, though.
Avery Nelson wrote:
Admit to it or not, people DO (mis)use a daisy as part of their anchor, even if not the primary piece.

Oh, I readily admit to that. People misuse all kinds of climbing gear; misuse of the gri-gri is sort of a cottage industry. But that's user error, not a gear problem.

JL

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By Avery N
From Boulder, CO
Jul 30, 2007
Canadian Rockies Ice 2008.
saxfiend wrote:
Be that as it may, do you really think I'd have come out of something like that alive if I substituted a PAS or a girth-hitched sling for the daisy chain?


Yeah, who knows with a factor 2+ fall -- but that's exactly why many folks prefer to stack the odds in their favor ;)

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By caughtinside
From Oakland CA
Jul 30, 2007
saxfiend wrote:
Glad to read the responses. HAHA! If I were ever to set up an "anchor" as retarded as that (only two points; primary tie-in to the weakest link; etc.), I'd have to say I deserved to take the long ride.


Hmm, that anchor doesn't sound that bad. Except for the ripping out bit. oh, and the daisy chain. ;)

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