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Combining Strength and Stamina In a Single Workout?
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By JohnWesely
From Red River Gorge
Feb 27, 2013
Gunking
Right now, I am beginning a strength/hyp phase where I will be hang boarding once a week. Last time I did a hangboard phase, I was a little disappointed with the lack of time to work on movement, so I decided on following my hangboard workout with a stamina workout where I attempt to get 100+5x V points with perfect form. I did this for the first time yesterday and it felt really nice. My question is whether following the hangboard workout with a stamina workout will diminish my hangboard gains?

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By Alvaro Arnal
Administrator
From Aspen, CO
Feb 27, 2013
Pup Tent OS
Interesting question because I've been thinking the same thing. I'm about to start a HYP phase myself during which I'll be hangboarding 3x a week. I'd still like to do some movement and stamina training though as last winter my HYP phase involved nothing but warmup-hangboard-cooldown for a month.

I have heard that doing stamina/endurance immediately after a strength session can diminish the gains of that strength workout. My solution is simply to divide the workouts; do an hour of hangboarding in the morning and then 1-1.5 hours of gym climbing in the evening. In this way I'm giving my body a bit of time to recover in between these workouts and accept the gains from hangboarding. I haven't started yet, but it's going to be interesting to see how my body handles these split workouts as far as recovery for the next hangboarding session is concerned. If I start feeling tired I will sacrifice some of the afternoon climbing sessions.

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By slim
Administrator
Feb 27, 2013
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.
i think there are 2 potential problems with this. first, it seems like too much volume and could potentially result in an overuse injury. i don't even like doing a cool down workout - it always seems like it quickly deteriorates into a meltdown workout. there is nothing really to gain from this, and it takes a lot longer to recover from it.

second, doing technique training when you are tired isn't optimal. your technique ends up suffering, and you start building this poor technique into your habits.

if you really want to add some movement/technique training, do it as a warmup for 30 to 45 minutes. then do your hangboard workout.

i would DEFINITELY advise against the split workout. it will really screw up your recovery. for alvaro, i would recommend 2 HB workouts per week and 1 dedicated movement/technique/stamina workout. and i mean stamina as in not a PE workout. more of an ARC workout or a CIR workout.

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By JohnWesely
From Red River Gorge
Feb 27, 2013
Gunking
slim wrote:
i think there are 2 potential problems with this. first, it seems like too much volume and could potentially result in an overuse injury. i don't even like doing a cool down workout - it always seems like it quickly deteriorates into a meltdown workout. there is nothing really to gain from this, and it takes a lot longer to recover from it. second, doing technique training when you are tired isn't optimal. your technique ends up suffering, and you start building this poor technique into your habits. if you really want to add some movement/technique training, do it as a warmup for 30 to 45 minutes. then do your hangboard workout. i would DEFINITELY advise against the split workout. it will really screw up your recovery. for alvaro, i would recommend 2 HB workouts per week and 1 dedicated movement/technique/stamina workout. and i mean stamina as in not a PE workout. more of an ARC workout or a CIR workout.


What I am specifically training in the "V Point" session is my ability to climb well when fatigued. I had my climbing partner watch while I climbed to ensure I was using proper technique and not getting sloppy. I am not really worried about overuse. Between climbing and lifting weights, I only take one rest day a week, so I am used to a fairly high volume. If I start to feel like that is the case, I will just drop it from the session entirely. My biggest concern is about whether or not doing the "V Point" session will hurt my strength gains.

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By Eric Whitbeck
Feb 28, 2013
Standard answer is that you can not train both at the same time. Your stamina training reduces your ability to gain from the strength training because you are not resting after, which is actually when you make the gains. Thus, periodzation. You may not get an overuse injury, but may not be getting the most out of your efforts. That said, everyone is different and you may make great gains. Try it, keep tabs on your performance, and see what happens.

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By Casey Ryback
Feb 28, 2013
Chief Petty Officer and former Navy Seal turned ch...
I don't think it will diminish your gains. I think it sounds like a good idea.

I have heard a lot of folks caution against doing power and endurance on the same day, and I know a lot of books also say it is ineffective....

Does anyone know where that information comes from? Is there some study showing that this is the case?

There's plenty of anecdotal evidence that training many different things in a single session works. It certainly seems like many top climbers do this. Macleod recommends it...

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By Dustin Drake
Feb 28, 2013
I think the claim is that you won't achieve the MAXIMUM possible results compared to focusing on one. You can certainly do both and make gains. What percentage of the max results, who knows. Quite frankly it comes across as bro science to me.

Whatever you do, if you put in 100% effort with a good plan, you will get the results you are after eventually.

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By Brendan Blanchard
From Strafford, NH
Feb 28, 2013
Obi Wan Ryobi - Darth Vader Crag, Rumney NH
The general idea behind HYP is that your workouts should be intense enough that there isn't any more useful work you can do for the next 24-48 hours.

I've done a HYP workout, where after a full 48 hours, I was still unable to complete the workout again. Granted, that was too intense, but you get the point.

Movement training can be done in ARC, as a longer warmup session, such as 30 min sessions before and after your workout. Just keep the skin intact. You'll get the climbing through pump part in your PE phase.

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By Just Solo
From Colorado Springs
Mar 1, 2013
Eric Whitbeck wrote:
Standard answer is that you can not train both at the same time. Your stamina training reduces your ability to gain from the strength training because you are not resting after, which is actually when you make the gains. Thus, periodzation. You may not get an overuse injury, but may not be getting the most out of your efforts. That said, everyone is different and you may make great gains. Try it, keep tabs on your performance, and see what happens.


Nailed it. The two are mutually exclusive. Strength phase first (2-4 weeks or more) endurance phase after a brief recovery period. The stronger you are the better your stamina will be, not the other way around. Gotta be strong first...

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By JohnWesely
From Red River Gorge
Mar 1, 2013
Gunking
Brendan Blanchard wrote:
The general idea behind HYP is that your workouts should be intense enough that there isn't any more useful work you can do for the next 24-48 hours. I've done a HYP workout, where after a full 48 hours, I was still unable to complete the workout again. Granted, that was too intense, but you get the point. Movement training can be done in ARC, as a longer warmup session, such as 30 min sessions before and after your workout. Just keep the skin intact. You'll get the climbing through pump part in your PE phase.


On a related note, ARCing feels sort of useless for training technique. Does anyone else agree?

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By JohnWesely
From Red River Gorge
Mar 1, 2013
Gunking
Just Solo wrote:
Nailed it. The two are mutually exclusive. Strength phase first (2-4 weeks or more) endurance phase after a brief recovery period. The stronger you are the better your stamina will be, not the other way around. Gotta be strong first...


I guess it is important to note that when I say stamina, I don't mean anaerobic endurance. I mean the ability to recover between climbs.

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By Mark E Dixon
From Sprezzatura, Someday
Mar 1, 2013
At the BRC
JohnWesely wrote:
On a related note, ARCing feels sort of useless for training technique. Does anyone else agree?


On the contrary, this spring was the first time I've done any ARC training, mostly on the treadwall. I thought it was helpful to work on correcting some of my bad technique in a low stress setting. But then I have a lot of bad habits!

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By Mark E Dixon
From Sprezzatura, Someday
Mar 1, 2013
At the BRC
Just Solo wrote:
Nailed it. The two are mutually exclusive.


Do you have any evidence for this? I realize it's the generally accepted opinion, but then so was static stretching before workouts.

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By Mark E Dixon
From Sprezzatura, Someday
Mar 1, 2013
At the BRC
Mark E Dixon wrote:
Do you have any evidence for this? I realize it's the generally accepted opinion, but then so was static stretching before workouts.


I take it back.
I've been perusing medscape and there is plenty of evidence that concurrent strength and endurance training inhibits maximum strength development.

Found this interesting citation, will try to get a copy and see if there's anything to share.

Strategies to optimize concurrent training of strength and aerobic fitness for rowing and canoeing.
(PMID:21425890)
Sports Medicine (Auckland, N.Z.) [2011, 41(4):329-343]

Abstract
During the last several decades many researchers have reported an interference effect on muscle strength development when strength and endurance were trained concurrently. The majority of these studies found that the magnitude of increase in maximum strength was higher in the group that performed only strength training compared with the concurrent training group, commonly referred to as the 'interference phenomenon'. Currently, concurrent strength and endurance training has become essential to optimizing athletic performance in middle- and long-distance events. Rowing and canoeing, especially in the case of Olympic events, with exercise efforts between 30 seconds and 8 minutes, require high amounts of maximal aerobic and anaerobic capacities as well as high levels of maximum strength and muscle power. Thus, strength training, in events such as rowing and canoeing, is integrated into the training plan. However, several studies indicate that the degree of interference is affected by the training protocols and there may be ways in which the interference effect can be minimized or avoided. Therefore, the aim of this review is to recommend strategies, based on research, to avoid or minimize any interference effect when training to optimize performance in endurance sports such as rowing and canoeing.

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By JohnWesely
From Red River Gorge
Mar 1, 2013
Gunking
Mark E Dixon wrote:
I take it back. I've been perusing medscape and there is plenty of evidence that concurrent strength and endurance training inhibits maximum strength development. Found this interesting citation, will try to get a copy and see if there's anything to share. Strategies to optimize concurrent training of strength and aerobic fitness for rowing and canoeing. (PMID:21425890) Sports Medicine (Auckland, N.Z.) [2011, 41(4):329-343] Abstract During the last several decades many researchers have reported an interference effect on muscle strength development when strength and endurance were trained concurrently. The majority of these studies found that the magnitude of increase in maximum strength was higher in the group that performed only strength training compared with the concurrent training group, commonly referred to as the 'interference phenomenon'. Currently, concurrent strength and endurance training has become essential to optimizing athletic performance in middle- and long-distance events. Rowing and canoeing, especially in the case of Olympic events, with exercise efforts between 30 seconds and 8 minutes, require high amounts of maximal aerobic and anaerobic capacities as well as high levels of maximum strength and muscle power. Thus, strength training, in events such as rowing and canoeing, is integrated into the training plan. However, several studies indicate that the degree of interference is affected by the training protocols and there may be ways in which the interference effect can be minimized or avoided. Therefore, the aim of this review is to recommend strategies, based on research, to avoid or minimize any interference effect when training to optimize performance in endurance sports such as rowing and canoeing.


That is interesting. The next question is whether Stamina workouts inhibit strength gains the same way endurance workouts do.

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By Casey Ryback
Mar 1, 2013
Chief Petty Officer and former Navy Seal turned ch...
In the abstract they are talking about strength training...do they mean lifting weights? So, I think their finding is that rowers/canoers(sp?)get more max strength gains if they lift weights in an off season, and then train endurance later.

It makes me wonder- Are the researchers concluding that rowers have more strength immediately after their strength phase? Or more strength when it counts, at the time of competition?

Another way to phrase it- Maybe the question shouldnt be "Does training strength and stamina separately lead to greater strength gains(just after a strength phase)?"....but...."Is it the best way to organize a training program to ultimately become a better, stronger climber?"

I also dont get any technique benefits from ARC.

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By Casey Ryback
Mar 1, 2013
Chief Petty Officer and former Navy Seal turned ch...
Tons of elite climbers seem to train many different things in a given session/day/week. Is it possible this hyp-recr-pe idea is a somewhat outdated model?

Aren't the climbers with the best strength/power the folks who do a high volume of bouldering with a lot of variety in venues, different setters, different angles, etc?

I like to geek out about phases and methodology and stuff as much as anyone, but I think some of the propeller hat training talk on the forums sounds a little counterproductive at times. Maybe people are making this stuff too complex?

Maybe the best advice for strength training for a lot of people would be the simple advice they would get from some backwards hat bro-bra at the gym: "Go try some hard moves. Project a sick problem. Get syykt."

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By Charles Kinbote
From Brooklyn, NY
Mar 1, 2013
On Waimea, 5.10d
What does "100+5x V points" mean exactly? I don't follow the notation.

edit: And what kind of hangboard workout are you doing?

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By Mark E Dixon
From Sprezzatura, Someday
Mar 1, 2013
At the BRC
JohnWesely wrote:
That is interesting. The next question is whether Stamina workouts inhibit strength gains the same way endurance workouts do.


What would your stamina workouts consist of?

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By slim
Administrator
Mar 1, 2013
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.
JohnWesely wrote:
What I am specifically training in the "V Point" session is my ability to climb well when fatigued. I had my climbing partner watch while I climbed to ensure I was using proper technique and not getting sloppy. I am not really worried about overuse. Between climbing and lifting weights, I only take one rest day a week, so I am used to a fairly high volume. If I start to feel like that is the case, I will just drop it from the session entirely. My biggest concern is about whether or not doing the "V Point" session will hurt my strength gains.


i still don't think it is a good idea. at the end of a good HYP workout, you will be headed downhill pretty quickly. trying to do a stamina workout afterward is just going to trash you. this might work ok for a couple sessions, but ultimately you will do more harm than good. i don't even like doing an ARC cooldown after a HYP workout. it just increases the required time to recover, and is a recipe for an overuse injury.

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By Mark E Dixon
From Sprezzatura, Someday
Mar 1, 2013
At the BRC
Nico Toscani wrote:
In the abstract they are talking about strength training...do they mean lifting weights? So, I think their finding is that rowers/canoers(sp?)get more max strength gains if they lift weights in an off season, and then train endurance later. It makes me wonder- Are the researchers concluding that rowers have more strength immediately after their strength phase? Or more strength when it counts, at the time of competition? Another way to phrase it- Maybe the question shouldnt be "Does training strength and stamina separately lead to greater strength gains(just after a strength phase)?"....but...."Is it the best way to organize a training program to ultimately become a better, stronger climber?"


I haven't been able to get this study, so can't fully answer your questions.
The studies I have skimmed generally have 4 groups- strength training only (weight lifting), endurance only, both strength and endurance and a control group. They seem to typically have the combined group do all of both kinds of exercises each week, which might be a confounder. Anyway, after 3-6 weeks depending on the study, they usually find the strength only group has the most increase in strength testing.

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By reboot
From Westminster, CO
Mar 1, 2013
So I have a copy of the article (can be downloaded when connected/VPNed to CU (or most university) network). I've long suspected some of the conclusions & will paraphrase:

short (5 week) training cycling focusing on 1 strength & 1 endurance target is better than longer traditional 12 week cycle that focuses on more components at once (I take this meaning the traditional cycle actually mix many things at once than the exclusive phrases in the Anderson bro cycle).

3 strength training/week (this seem pretty specific to the volume for the rowers)

Don't train local muscle endurance and aerobic power together. But strength, power & aerobic power can be developed concurrently.

If you must, train strength before endurance in the same session for highly trained athletes. Or at least wait 8 hrs after endurance training before strength training, unless they work on different muscles.

Don't train strength to failure. Less repetitions followed by endurance is a pretty good combo for rowers.

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By JohnWesely
From Red River Gorge
Mar 1, 2013
Gunking
Charles Kinbote wrote:
What does "100+5x V points" mean exactly? I don't follow the notation. edit: And what kind of hangboard workout are you doing?


Climb 100 V Points plus 5 more for every week.

My hangboard workout is as follows.

5 seconds on 10 seconds off for 5 reps on 8 or 9 mm edge for as many sets as I can before I start feeling weaker.

5 second max pulls on a one pad edge with front two and mid two fingers on a slightly sloping one pad edge.

5 second max pulls with back two on the metolious simulator two finger pocket.

Number of sets for everything is contingent on how my fingers feel.

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By Casey Ryback
Mar 1, 2013
Chief Petty Officer and former Navy Seal turned ch...
Maybe a reasonable answer is that we need a little more information.

Are you freakishly strong with bad stamina? If so, maybe shortening/limiting the fingerboard work and focusing more on stamina would be good.

Is your goal a 100 foot route? Boulder problem? Winning a bouldering competition where youd need to do a ton of problems over a couple days?

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By JohnWesely
From Red River Gorge
Mar 1, 2013
Gunking
Nico Toscani wrote:
Maybe a reasonable answer is that we need a little more information. Are you freakishly strong with bad stamina? If so, maybe shortening/limiting the fingerboard work and focusing more on stamina would be good. Is your goal a 100 foot route? Boulder problem? Winning a bouldering competition where youd need to do a ton of problems over a couple days?


I would say I am really weak for the grade I climb. I want to get stronger to correct this, but I would also like to be able to put in longer climbing days and be able to put more solid goes in on routes at my limit.

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By Casey Ryback
Mar 1, 2013
Chief Petty Officer and former Navy Seal turned ch...
I don't see anything wrong with doing both. It should be noted that the fingerboard workout you described is very different from what people on this board are thinking of.

Yours is aimed at improving finger strength, and probably isnt grueling overall so its not a problem to train stamina(or whatever else) afterwords.

When folks in this forum hear "hyp phase fingerboard" they are thinking of an 18 set monster repeater workout that will leave most people pretty destroyed. That's why theyre saying you shouldnt do anything after or else you will get injured. Their workout is described in 'making of a rock prodigy' and its similar to the workouts on the beastmaker app.

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