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By Monomaniac
Administrator
From Morrison, CO
Sep 22, 2010
Pulling a small roof at 2/3 height on Mission Impossible.  Adam Sanders photo.

Administrator's Note:

The following discussion was originally located on the Royal Flush page. Please post additional comments here.


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By Brian Pappas
From silverthorne CO
Sep 16, 2010

This post was originally a comment in Royal Flush

ROWDY, please take your comments somewhere else, they are not welcome on this page or anywhere else on this site.

Referring to the Euro trash comment that has since been deleted


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By Taylor-B.
From CO & AK
Sep 20, 2010
Mt. Churchill, University Range

This post was originally a comment in Royal Flush

Royal Flush
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By JPVallone
Sep 21, 2010

This post was originally a comment in Royal Flush

ROWDY SAID "They call me Rowdy for a good reason."

Rowdy they call me Joe Vallone for a good reason and that is why I use my name when I post. Why don't you try using your real name or give me or the author of this route a call, I would be more then happy to discuss it with you. The IFMGA has nothing to do with this route. Next time you post, proof your comment before sending, I see you like to retract your comments with that edit button.

Happy Trails,

Rowdy

P.S. sorry your training arena has been taken away, can you explain how? And what greater ranges of the world is Royal prepping you for???

Have you heard of RMNP? Now that might be some training.


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By SaraS
Sep 21, 2010

This post was originally a comment in Royal Flush

I have to side with Rowdy on this one. I think that this route is really fun and enjoyable. I just don't understand why so many bolts needed to be used. Yes, some areas need to be protected by bolts on some of the slab climbing. Do you really need bolts next to legitimate crack systems? As a local Summit County climber, who was born and raised in Silverthorne, I am very protective of these mountains. It just seems silly to me that people can defend the bolts. Remember what Yvon Chouinard said....

"No longer can we assume the Earth's resources are limitless; that there are ranges of unclimbed peaks extending endlessly beyond the horizon. Mountains are finite, and despite their massive appearance, they are fragile."

"Mad bolters are among the worst offenders of the alpine environment. Young climbers must learn that bolting is done as a substitute for climbing. Guides, climbing schools and established climbers have a heavy responsibility here."

"As we enter this new era of mountaineering, re-examine your motives for climbing. Employ restraint and good judgment. Remember the rock, the other climbers — climb clean."
--"A Word" written by Yvon Chouinard and Tom Frost (1974)

Joe-
What justification do you guys have for all these bolts? Can you give me a legitimate reason why these are ALL necessary. Rumor has it you helped with putting it up. Stand up for your route and tell me WHY you need bolts by CRACKS. Prove me wrong....


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By stan wagon
Sep 21, 2010

This post was originally a comment in Royal Flush

The route is great fun, but I have to agree that bolts are out of place where alternatives are easily available. Stan Wagon, Silverthorne


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By JoshOrin
From Telluride, CO
Sep 21, 2010
Top of the Grand

This post was originally a comment in Royal Flush

Shame on you, Brian. Did you not see the first guideline for posting a comment. It says "don't be a jerk"! Rowdy has every right to voice his opinion and you have no right to tell him to take it elsewhere. If that's your attitude, then you are the one who is not welcome here.
As for the route, I think Rowdy has a very valid point. In many places, the bolts are necessary, but in many other places, you can get perfectly good, straightforward placements right next to a bolt. I like the route and appreciate the effort put forth by the FAs, but I have never climbed a route that is so irresponsibly bolted and presented. Unless the FAs want to be viewed as the Warren Hardings of Summit County, I think they should reexamine the route with concerned climbers in our community to determine a diplomatic solution and prevent debates like this from rising over future routes.


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By JPVallone
Sep 21, 2010

This post was originally a comment in Royal Flush

Sara and Rowdy,

For starters, I did not put a single bolt on the whole route, never drilled a hole. I did, however, climb a handful of the pitches before the bolts were added on gear and had a blast, but I am not bent over the fact that someone had the vision to put up the route and do it in the style they wanted. They didn't ruin my training arena for the mountain ranges of the world as Rowdy put it. There is plenty of unclimbed rock in the world and in this state for that matter to put a route up in your own style as you see fit. So, get off your ass and do it. So, when it's finished, I too can climb it and tell you how you should of done it. It would be much more fun to slander your work then to say thank you for adding a climb to our community which has a lack of climbing. Creating a route that enables people to enjoy a long outing without getting in over there head. I'm not saying that every route needs to be easily accessible and overly safe. But this was a nice gift to the county to allow other not so hard core elitists to enjoy a route and sample our sport.

There is not a very big climbing community in this county, but maybe the fact that there are active developers looking outside the zuma box is a good thing. It's nice to see some expansion to our climbing surplus up here, and it can help the Summit climbing community grow.

I am happy that it has sparked interest in this community to get people to climb that never would of climbed what happens to be a cool peak with good rock in their own backyard. Many folks are enjoying the line and are grateful and thankful there was a route like this that was accessible for them. Why does everything have to be a hard core testpiece? Do you have any idea how much work it takes to put up a route like that? I am sure it was more work cleaning than bolting. I'm psyched I can chuck a 2 hour lap up Royal for sunsets now.

Sara and Rowdy, when is the last time you climbed Royal before this route was added, and which line did you take?

If you want to climb some of my routes, I will gladly hand you a topo, but they are deep in the remote regions of the world on some big pieces of stone and plenty of firsties in RMNP if you want local. You can go climb one of my routes in RMNP before you judge my style, but I am sure you might whimper a bit.

Food for thought folks, Why is the Crystal Ball OK??? There is gear all over that thing, it follows a seam the whole way. Is that any different, I don't see a stink over it. Is it because it's 5.12 so that's ok??? Anyone that climbs 5.12 should know how to protect it right?

More food for thought, El Capitan has bolts all over the place, many bolted belays next to cracks. Why is that OK? I have done 14 routes on El Cap, and when I was done climbing them I didn't make threatening phone calls and internet posts about the ethical debate of the bolts. I didn't take time out of my day to take photos and try and prove a point. I just went and climbed some more :-)

In regards to Euro trash, that is another bash, Europe kicks ass. I live there half the year and just got residency in France for 3 years. So, I enjoy skiing there in the winter and climbing here in the summer. But the elitist holier than though attitude is not an issue there. So, maybe I will spend more time climbing there next summer. Just got back from Chamonix and La Grave a couple weeks ago, trip was definitely too short. We could add all the bolts and chairs to Ten Mile that we want, but we would never have a mini version of the Alps, Rowdy, because the Alps are 3-4 x's bigger, LOL. Might be a good start, though.

I thought the complete opposite, Rowdy, I thought why can't folks around here have the vision that Europe has for embracing there mountains. Yeah, they are a bit heavy on the bolts, but that's only if you are climbing the trade routes and popular areas, I can personally give you a hit list that might change your thinking. And in more cases then not, bolts are less impact then tat. Sara, why do we have trail systems? Well, bolts in many situations provide the same effect. I wish I had a dollar for every pound of tat I have pulled out of RMNP. I sure wouldn't be guiding anymore. LOL

And if you skied with me in Europe, then you might actually come back and say why aren't there more trams and chairlifts up these beautiful mountains. I guess Silverton was ruined when that chairlift went in? And now that Revelstoke added the longest vertical rise in North America it must really suck, too.

The alps kick ass, and make our zone feel like hills. The cool thing is you go to a crag and there is grandma and grandpa out for a climbing picnic with the kids and everyone is sending. Right next to grandma enjoying her bolted 5b, Hans and Frans are sending a desperate 8b and everyone is just hanging out, smiling and climbing, not bashing and playing climbing, Nazi bolt cop. Very active and educated mountaineers, not just climbers. Don't get me wrong, I love Summit, I have a house in Silverthorne, I owe my ski career to Summit and am grateful to this county. But we live in a box here folks.

Last but not least, I agree this route would not fly in Boulder or RMNP for that matter, but if you are more bent on flame wars and bolting wars, then go there, they have a very active community for people that like to bitch and not climb. But get over it. Make a statement, don't clip the bolts, go 20 feet over to the lower angle terrain and make your belay in the big crack, and climb the broken ledges, then flex your chest and take pictures so you can tell us what a hardman you are.

Better yet, put up a line, there is plenty of pickings up there and the rock is good. I am psyched to see people taking action up here and developing, I too am having fun with it but I would rather stick pins in my eyes then share it with my community if this the representations elitist attitude towards it. The new development is great for many of us who are sick of standing in line and looking for parking at Haus rock.

Because of this line, I have met over 20 new climbers in Summit this summer. I have seen climbers take up climbing again that stopped. Although it has pissed you guys off, it has inspired others. Lived here for 15 years and I could count the climbers I knew on 2 hands before that.

Have fun, be safe, out there,

P.S. Rowdy, how did I make the guiding community look bad, LOL I didn't put the route up, Not one hole!

Sara and Rowdy, I don't know either one of you, but that's because I choose to climb out of the county when I can because of the lack of climbing here and partners.

But could you please do your homework, I didn't bolt it, I still enjoy it, and I am not bent about it. I lived in Estes for 10 years and the flame wars there were disgusting between Boulder and Estes. Why can't people just shut up and climb, and put routes up in there own style?

P.P.S. Josh Orin, Warren Harding was a visionary, and a bad ass to boot. I lived in Yosemite for 3 years and am still in awe of his visions. And more importantly what he accomplished with the equipment he had, I don't know you, but I would bet my left nut that Warren is way harder then you.

Sara and Rowdy, I'm not posting to make enemies or start wars, but if you ever want to share a rope, or just a beer, then maybe you can know more about me before you make assumptions.

I just got sucked into this because I got lame phone calls, a bunch of earfuls, and I really don't care, the route authors are my friends. Tim is a bad ass, and he put the route up so other people can enjoy it, too. It was a selfless commitment of his time and money to share climbing with others. Tim has put up his share of test pieces in different style. Go climb one of his desert routes if you're after pucker factor.


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By Brian Pappas
From silverthorne CO
Sep 21, 2010

This post was originally a comment in Royal Flush

The reason I posted the way I did was because I was very pissed off by the Euro trash comment. That is all.


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By JPVallone
Sep 21, 2010

This post was originally a comment in Royal Flush

Sara S, welcome to Mountain Spray Member since: Sep. 21, 2010.

I see you made an account today just to add some food for thought, well, welcome to the forum. Take it from me, I guarantee you are gonna have more fun climbing then playing around on MountainSpray flame wars.

Welcome to the club.

:-)


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By JPVallone
Sep 21, 2010

This post was originally a comment in Royal Flush

One more rant sorry,

Sara and Rowdy, since you seem to know all the rules about what is acceptable, can you please tell me what the rule is for bolting near a crack? How far away does the pro need to be before the bolt can go in? Basically I want to know what the proper and acceptable distance is, since I didn't get my copy of the Rock Climbers Rule Book. Is it different on different rock, or different areas? Or is there a Summit rule specific to Royal?

P.S. I was thinking of putting a new route up this week, but I would be psyched if you two could come out and preview it for me, so you can tell me were to put the bolts if any.

Somehow I imagine it would be a sport route that would call for 9 draws a #4 RP and a blue TCU, but we can still call it a sport route, right?


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By Rob Griz
From Frisco
Sep 22, 2010
Summit panaroma from Atlantic, looking west-northeast.  The west face of Fletcher, summit of Pacific, Blue River Valley.

This post was originally a comment in Royal Flush

Geeze kids, let's all play nice. Royal has some of the finest natural features, and admittedly for those of us who have spent any time on her slabby flanks (dare I say locals?!), know that her sweet cracks are a bit random. So honestly, who really gives a shart! I've watched a friend climb the M7+/8 Amphibian in Vail on TRAD gear...a deck-to-anchor crack with a bolt every 10 f-ing feet. And yet every time my sorry ass goes up there to try to lead it, I'm thankful for the hangers. Does that make me a puss? If it does, then I'm in with the rest of the local bad-ass ice/mixed climbers who clip the same damn bolts. And yet I've witnessed one climber lead it completely on gear, with runouts and questionable placements.

See, it was his choice...to lead it in his own style. And when he came down, he never bastardized the bolts or the way the FA party put it up. He was like the way Frank Sinatra stated it best...he did it "His Way". No one ever forced anyone to climb a route and worse yet clip bolts on any give line. That’s why people like Fowler and Hersey soloed shit. They passed pins, fixed gear and anchor stations, they walked right past all that. They did it "their way", it was all about their personal experience and nothing more. That is the beauty of climbing.

I'm not gonna get into my 2-cents on Royal. Are there a few extra bolts? Sure. Do you have to clip them? F-no. Can you see their shiny little hangers from the bike path, or better yet from the deck of my house in Frisco? F-no. Is Royal an "Alpine" route? F-no. Hit the Park, the Winds, the Bugs, Can Rocks, Arrigetch, Chamonix, etc...Royal is far from alpine, and I hate to have people perceive it as such, as they are in for a rude awakening if they should ever climb the above mentioned. And through this all, I have my own personal line I'm looking to set up on the upper headwall of Royal. Will there be some bolts? Hell yeah.

A route like Royal Flush took some vision, a lot of time, and my guess is ~$500+ in gear at wholesale. Tim did it "his" way. If someone should chop Tim's bolts, my hope is that they would have the balls to drive down to his place and personally hand them back to him. I'm bolting across the highway on a fun, worthy, rinky-dink crag, White Cliff. Quality routes? Sure. Well bolted? I'd like to think so, many have agreed so far. A chance for me to respectfully "give back to the local climbing community"? Absolutely!. I don't make a ton of cash, not really sponsored, pay pro-deal for my bolts, and there ain't a climber out there throwing money my way to make Summit a more fun place to crag. At heart, I’m a trad climber, but the 10-Mile rock dictates bolts, just like “Bolter Canyon” down on the Front Range. This is my backyard when I'm not traveling off to some far and wild place.
I respect, I climb, I contribute.


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By Will J Scott
Sep 22, 2010

This post was originally a comment in Royal Flush

Back to the positive- I have climbed this route 6 times now and it was awesome every time. I have no interest in flamewars, so I will stay out of the mix on that. Twice now I have climbed the lower sections using only gear, just for fun. But I would have never been on that wall in the first place if Royal Flush was not there to show me the potential. Great job, guys, thanks for the route.


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By JPVallone
Sep 22, 2010

This post was originally a comment in Royal Flush

Ok, after reading all this I am sorry I even got involved, I tried to stay out of it as long as I could. I feel I was called out by people that don't even have there facts straight. To be told I make the guiding community look bad, OUCH!!! That is an attack that is too close to my heart, so it was fuel for my rant.

Rob, thank you for contributing to some new climbing around here. Props, I too have put a bunch of money into the county this summer to help the cause, I hope to meet you and share a rope with you. As for your line on Royal, don't take my line. Just kidding, would love to join ya, because I bet you saw what I saw and I am stoked about it. I'll show you mine if you show me yours!!!! Would love to see what your doing in white cliff, too. I too have some firsties to show ya. I'm always thirsty for a firsty.

Ok kids I agree with Rob, lets all play nice, This route has proved me wrong, there are some climbers living up here :-0


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By Teague
Sep 22, 2010

This post was originally a comment in Royal Flush

Joe,
Wow. That was quite a lot of personal attacks, generally mean accusations dissing Summit, its residents and mountains.
I like our mountains, even if they're not as big as the Alps.
It's FREAKIN' GORGEOUS HERE!!! Geez.

TO: Joe, Tim, Peter, Rowdy, Sarah, Brian, Rob and anyone concerned,

I have not engaged in these types of comment forums before. I find them too impersonal. I prefer the phone or better yet in person conversations. However, out of respect for those communicating here, I'll meet in the middle.

I have had numerous phone conversations and a couple meetings with Tim Toula, Joe Valone, and Peter and have asked to climb it with them, especially Tim but to no avail.

Summit does have a large climbing community. It's just spread out and diverse. We don't live in a "box" if you consider the land and mountain ranges inside Summit County, it's adventurous and well-traveled residents and central proximity to many world class climbing destinations. There is lots of climbing here and it matters to those of us who make it our home. I've been to RMNP nine times so far this year and many other rad places. We all climb and travel and return and love our home. This is why there is concern with Mt. Royal.

In the 12 years I've lived here, I have climbed, scrambled, soloed, in all seasons Including winter, on the west face of Mt. Royal. I have climbed directly on or near "Royal Flush" as it's now known, in its present bolted state three times now.

Many portions of the route have obviously been climbed before. I.e. the rusty ring piton on pitch "18", the quarter inch at the base of the "Great Dihedral". The webbing I found likely just a couple years old at the top of pitch "8" etc.

Yes, it's a great route! I appreciate all the work it takes to install all this hardware. I have no problem with reasonably placed bolts... too many, too little, no big deal. But this is clearly excessive.

There is, as some have noted in this thread, many bolts placed right next to perfect gear placements as well as anchors 15-30 meters apart when there is no rope drag and many walkoffs. On the first pitch, a bolt just inches away from a bomber #2. Why? Then many more. Then the "6th" pitch (second or third pitch for some of us) bolted traverse trail, weird. Bolts are next to a bomber #3 right on the 'no hands- walking-lie down-party-ledge-with trees; and for a 5.6 or 5.9 leader? Hmm. Then on the top of pitch "7" the Crystal Groove a textbook Camalot, red I believe, then a blue TCU or green Alien at the lip. Just examples of many safe secure natural placements inches from new bolts. Along the route there are numerous WALK off ledges/gullies and a well established hiking descent trail off the summit. Yet what, 20 anchors on what most are climbing in less than 10 pitches?

The route is WAY OVER BOLTED. Truely ask yourselves WHY? What are the reasons, motives, of three guides being involved with the installation of all this hardware?

Let's be honest. This is unnecessary, and ethically wrong. Especially in the mountains. And it matters. And from IFMGA guides? What a great place to teach gear placements, good judgment of ability, respect for those who went before and who will in the future and leave no trace and environmental preservation. You can say "just don't clip the bolts", but the permanent damage to the rock and the individual unspoiled experience and adventure has been taken away forever.

An incredibly accomplished climber once said, "Climbing in and of itself means nothing, unless it causes us to live a better way, to be a better person."

It's not getting to the top that counts. It's the style in which it's done and what we learn that matters.

Should we not heed the concerns of some of the greatest climbers and people of our time?

Should we ignore Yvon Chounard, David Brower, John Muir, Teddy Roosevelt, Steven Mather, Rolando Garibotti, The Access Fund, American Alpine Club and The AMGA. Google The Tyrol Declaration- A code to climb by. We are not the only ones.

Up until last summer, this mountain had been treated with respect, restraint and a low impact approach. How is it OK to totally disregard history, modern clean climbing equipment and ethics, and advice from The Great Pioneers and organizations.

We the concerned climbers of Summit ask for this route to be cleaned up to some middle ground by those who equipped it.

Climb safe, climb your best!

With respect,
Sincerely,

Teague Holmes

Anyone who has concerns, please email me at teagueholmes@hotmail.com or call me with any questions, to sign the petition, or to go climbing!


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By JPVallone
Sep 22, 2010

This post was originally a comment in Royal Flush

Teague, reread my comments, not attacks, defense. Have another read, please. Yeah, there is some sarcasm, but why can't you guys accept that you are in an elitist minority. Look at the comments from the start of this thread, if this is to come to community consensus does majority rule, 3 pissed off people and about 20 plus super stoked people that probably don't climb 5.12 on RPs.

The retracted comments above dissed the Alps by someone who claims he won't climb or ski there and if he does we can kick him in the nuts. That's is his loss if he won't go to the Valley or Europe. The word EuroTrash was used, I never called Summit Trash. So, Teague, your sticking up for Summit and our Mountains, I stuck up for the Alps, at least I have been to both places and can speak for both instead of a stereotypical assumption. It was an ignorant comment.

It was also stated that I give the guiding community a bad name, Still waiting to hear how, I poured my life into the profession, Sounds like an attack to me, I did not put up the route, but I am not a bent elitist about it. Get over it. If style is so important to you, climb the ball on gear and have its author remove the bolts that you can get gear at, what's the difference? What about Indian Creek, bolts at a ropes length right next to the crack when the lines go up for 300 more feet, but they are there so people can get back down and TR the first pitch. You have your work cut out for you to correct that situation. How about the Nose of El Cap, have you thought about chopping what might be the greatest rock climb on the planet???

I stood up for Summit, too, read my post again, I have a home here for God's sake. Did I not say I was grateful and owe a great deal of what I have because of this place. Please don't twist my words.

Teague, it was the fact that I told you about this route that started all this in the first place. I'm sorry for that. I will be sure to never share any climbing I find out about with you again if this is the scrutiny that shall follow. It was your hour long phone call bitching and whining to me at the beginning of the summer that was full of threats and Climbing Police Antics that was more then an attack to start with, Remember that, I think it was followed up a couple times, too. Once again before you had your facts straight. I sat there and listened to every word you had to say, I could hardly get a word in, remember that. They were threats, something along the lines of "you are creating a lot of work for me around the county if this continues". Yet you still didn't have the facts straight, I didn't put the route up.

I hate myself for getting sucked into this BS. Can't believe I'm losing sleep over it. This route has made many of the climbers in this community smile, and I am happy they got to experience it.

Teague If I get brought into something via attacks, I respond. Especially when people don't have the story straight.

Teague, who is "We the concerned climbers of Summit"?


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By Taylor-B.
From CO & AK
Sep 22, 2010
Mt. Churchill, University Range

There you go Joe, I used that edit button to delete every thing I said. Sorry for sticking up for the wilderness, Sorry for using other places as an example. Your right Yvon Chouinard is a bad boy for having a vision like that.

Peace, Love, & Powder,
Taylor


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By Teague
Sep 22, 2010

Joe,
I have never planned on chopping this or any route. This dialog, research, conversation and other future actions are the "work" I spoke of.
Tim left me a message last night! We're set to climb it together tomorrow!
I'll provide Tim a list of concerned climbers in Summit. Give a call and we can talk.

TO: Joe, Tim, Peter, Rowdy, Sarah, Brian, Rob and anyone concerned,

We do want many of the bolts removed though we would love to see the installers remove them. Please?

As humans, we all have an impact on the earth and each other. Through education and sometimes technology we can learn to lessen our impact. Like choosing to live simply so that others can simply live. Trying to say, "this is enough for me"

And that's just it...This is not about me, or you, or even Tim and Peter. It's much bigger than that.
I't's about preserving options, resources, and experiences for today and tomorrow's climbers, future generations, our kids, their kids, etc.

I'ts not about conquering or saying "I'm the first" or "I/they want more." I't's about meeting what's there, and saying "this is what I've encountered, and it's enough for me"

It's about what can we learn from climbing, from our past. Being able to cry and be sick about us all being part of the cause of the oil that gushed into the gulf and say "how can we change?" How can we grow and prevent this damage to nature and the people effected?

Joe. You know the vast majority of the worlds climbing community disapproves of drilling bolts next to contemporary clean protection placements. It's why the shelves are stocked with far more cams and nuts than pitons and hammers. We've evolved, we've learned, we share it.

I'm glad there has been dialog and discussion regarding this matter and most of it has occurred outside of this small forum. This has been my primary goal all along.

We will continue to talk and try to respect and meet each other on some middle ground.

I will not be responding further in this forum. At least for some time. Im more psyched to talk in person or on the phone, e mail or on the mountain.

I truly hope you sleep well.

Peace,
Teague Holmes


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By JPVallone
Sep 29, 2010

Climbed this route again on Saturday and had a blast with friends from France, one a guide

They called it pleasure climbing, which is something we don't understand here, Big smiles and they said why the big fuss about the bolts when there is a big F---ing highway with trucks right there. I thought that was funny.

Anyway, over 50 registers in the log now, and everyone of them happy and thankful.

It's amazing how many smiles this route has brought to folks that may have never experienced it. As the french said, pleasure climbing. In many of the register comments so many happy people and many people saying please don't chop this route, thanks for the bolts. People I have never heard of and coming from close regions to experience something different and quite enjoyable.

As the song goes, if it makes you happy it can't be so bad.

In closing , I am sorry I wasted time in this thread at all but it hit a personal nerve. I feel bad that I put anytime into it at all and apologize if I was too forward or opinionated, but thats what forums are for, I spoke from my heart and I stand where I stand,

Happy climbing and goodbye to this issue, the register says all and the happy climbers have spoken.


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By Tim Hadfield
From Steamboat Springs, Co
Feb 10, 2011
Easy stuff at Rifle

First off, I'd like to say that I have enjoyed this route a couple of times now and I hope that I can continue to climb it in it's present state for years to come. I don't think that it is "over-bolted", even though I have walked by bolts in several places along it's length. I have placed a few pieces of gear, more due to my desire to place gear. I don't think it is my place to dictate how anyone climbs a particular route. I do, however, respect everyones desire to climb in their own "style", but does that give them the right to tell me to climb in the same "style".
The pioneers of modern climbing used hemp ropes, leather mountaineering boots, pins and pitons, steel caribiners, and a rock hammer. Are we to all go back to that equipment just to keep our style righteous? I noticed in the above pictures that new school camming units were used. Not one picture showed a slung hardware store nut or a steel caribiner being used. I'm going to guess that there were new harnesses and sticky soled shoes employed by the photographer. I definitely respect those that climb without using the bolts placed on Royal Flush. Why they can't be happy with just that is beyond me. In my opinion, that displays egotistic behavior.
I'm going to close this with a quote from Yvon Chouinard, "The rules of the game must be constantly updated to keep up with the expanding technology. Otherwise we overkill the classic climbs and delude ourselves into thinking that we are better climbers than the pioneers."
To those that put this route up, I can't thank you enough. You have provided the climbing world with a great "pleasure route". You should stand proud with your accomplishments!


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By Joe Forrester
From Ft. Collins, CO
Sep 18, 2011

This is really sad. While I am glad people are enjoying this route, it is a real tragedy that the rock has been bastardized in such a way. I have been climbing on Royal for over 15 years, and have always enjoyed the opportunity to place gear and adventure all over the face. In this era of clip-ups, it would behoove the "first-ascentionists" to think before they put up a "20 pitch" line on a cliff that people have been climbing for years. There used to be a time when boldness and ethic was respected in this sport, but apparently cowardice, bolting, and lack of fortitude are the new norms.


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By Tom Willard
Sep 18, 2011
Hitchhiking in Arches

I climbed this route about a month ago and had a great time. Is it over-bolted, maybe, but is there plenty of rock for other people to have their own trad only adventures, definitely.

In my fifteen years of climbing, one common thread that comes through are debates and the passion of people's views. I can understand that this route may not have been everyone’s vision for the area. Maybe there shouldn't be anymore "everyman's" bolted routes in the area, but in my opinion it is far worse to try to undo the situation and remove the bolts.

Why can't the climbing community share their views and visions and have a meeting in the middle? I imagine it is a similar debate as to the reason the U.S. doesn't embrace the Via Ferrata like Europe does. When my wife and I went to Italy, she had an amazing experience climbing "routes" should could never have climbed by normal means, yet there remains many classic bolted and traditional climbs for those wanting specific challenges.

I hope that we can turn Royal Flush into a positive example of how to deal with a controversial subject whatever the outcome.


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By Dave Carey
From Morrison, CO
May 24, 2012

This is silly. I spend a lot of my time doing trad but sometimes I like to be fast and light on a sport climb just cruising up without worrying about gear etc. Colorado does not have many "big wall" like sport climbs so this is a treat.

The amount of rock out there is infinite for an adventure trad climber and this should not even be an issue.

Love the route, great beginner sport climber's multipitch route to work on transitions and rope management etc.

Cheers,
Dave


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By Bal Rau
May 30, 2012

Thanks for putting this route up.

As for the discussion, this is a sport route, so stop complaining about the bolts. There are so much more purely trad routes for the same grade in Colorado. It's nice to have variety.


FLAG


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