coil double ropes

when one is top belaying with double ropes, how do you coil them across your tie in? i do this with a single rope but i would imagine that it would turn into a cluster fuck if i did it with doubles. am i just stupid or is there a different way to do it with doubles? also, is there really a difference in belaying using twin ropes than just 1 single rope? i'm thinking about getting doubles but i'm not ready to get into the whole half rope technique. would it be a hassle for the belayer to use doubles even if they're used as halfs?

eli poss wrote:i'm thinking about getting doubles but i'm not ready to get into the whole twin rope technique. would it be a hassle for the belayer to use doubles even if they're used as halfs?

Eli,

I think you're getting your terminology mixed up. "Doubles" and "halves" mean the same thing. Twin-rope technique is different, in that you are clipping both ropes into each piece.

oh sorry. well, is there any more hassle in using twin ropes than just a single?

You've got more rope at the belay to keep an eye on, but basically treat twins like they are a single. In other words, if you're doing a multipitch, just leave them in one stack/coil without separating them. When you leave the ground, they start in two separate stacks. I haven't climbed double-rope technique, so I can't comment on that.

If you're climbing with just one partner, treat them as a single rope. If you have 2 followers, coil and stack them separately. If they're simul-climbing, and you're the only person leading, you can stack them as a single rope as well...

doligo wrote:If you're climbing with just one partner, treat them as a single rope. If you have 2 followers, coil and stack them separately. If they're simul-climbing, and you're the only person leading, you can stack them as a single rope as well...

sorry i should have specified for 2 followers. if they were simuling but i was swinging leads with one of the seconds would i need to coil the ropes seperately, and if so, how would i do this

Coil seperately, or you'll end up with a cluster eff. Take time initially when you are at the belay and pull up the slack in two separate stacks. If you are on a good ledge, just stack the ropes in separate piles. If it's a hanging belay, stack ropes separately on your tie-in side by side. Or you can stack one rope on your tie-in and the other one on a sling clipped from the anchor to your harness (once you're done, you can unclip it from your harness and clip back to the anchor to keep a nice nest separately and not hang on your waist). If you are swinging leads, it's easier to untie and swap rope ends with your other leader (of course clip in direct first before untiying).

I tried to dig up an article that I saw in a Climbing Magazine "Tech Tip" section a couple years back with no luck. I believe it was written by the ropework Jedi, Marc Chauvin...

It is possible to swing leads while having 2 climbers simul-second without having to restack and separate the ropes every time. The leader of the first pitch ends up with two ends, both on the bottom of the stack(s). As the two followers arrive at the belay, the one that is leading pitch 2 takes the end from the other follower from pitch 1. The leader from pitch 1 gives one of his two ends to the other follower for pitch 2. After this switch, the new leader for pitch 2 has both ends from the top of the stack, and both followers have an end on the bottom. You can see how a diagram would be useful...

Managing two ropes takes practice, and you will undoubtedly end up with some tangles every now and then. As soon as you arrive at a belay, take a couple of seconds and plan out a rope management strategy...it will go a long way opposed to just winging it.

After learning lots of ways to do poor rope management (and new and inventive curse words), a few tips that helped me. This is assuming you're at a hanging or size-limited belay. If you're at a nice big ledge, just flake them into two separate piles.

First, when you get to the anchor, you want two separate attachments to the anchor that are ideally 1' apart. I usually clove hitch into the master point, so then I clip a daisy / couple slings / whatever (I prefer a daisy for a reason I'll get into below) into one piece of the anchor. It's only going to be holding the weight of a coiled rope, so you don't need to equalize anything.

Second, make sure you're auto-blocking, or you simply won't have the hands free you need to deal with rope management.

Third, lean back on your clove hitched rope, then adjust your daisy to a little less than the same tension (to avoid putting your weight on one piece, rather than the masterpoint).

Fourth, forget your climbing partner's names and simply refer to them by color of rope they're on - plenty of names sound similar, but the difference between red and blue is quite easy to hear.

Fifth, one partner begin to climb first so that they're a good 15-20' above the other. There will be some inherent slack in the system - hopefully only a couple feet - and you want to avoid having one fall on the other. Poor form.

Sixth, as they climb, stack one rope on the clove hitch, the other on the daisy. Take the extra 1/2 second to stack it nicely.

Now when the two followers get to the top of the pitch, you have two stacked ropes that are separated and swapping leads only takes a minute or two.

Will Gordon wrote:I tried to dig up an article that I saw in a Climbing Magazine "Tech Tip" section a couple years back with no luck. I believe it was written by the ropework Jedi, Marc Chauvin... It is possible to swing leads while having 2 climbers simul-second without having to restack and separate the ropes every time. The leader of the first pitch ends up with two ends, both on the bottom of the stack(s). As the two followers arrive at the belay, the one that is leading pitch 2 takes the end from the other follower from pitch 1. The leader from pitch 1 gives one of his two ends to the other follower for pitch 2. After this switch, the new leader for pitch 2 has both ends from the top of the stack, and both followers have an end on the bottom. You can see how a diagram would be useful... Managing two ropes takes practice, and you will undoubtedly end up with some tangles every now and then. As soon as you arrive at a belay, take a couple of seconds and plan out a rope management strategy...it will go a long way opposed to just winging it.

I've done that, but in practice especially with really skinny ropes you still end up with a cluster - your followers never end up climbing at the same speed all the time and arriving perfectly at the belay in the same time... It is just better to stack ropes separately. You don't have to restack, just flip each pile over like you'd do with a single rope pile if you were block leading.

eli poss wrote:when one is top belaying with double ropes, how do you coil them across your tie in? i do this with a single rope but i would imagine that it would turn into a cluster fuck if i did it with doubles. am i just stupid or is there a different way to do it with doubles? also, is there really a difference in belaying using twin ropes than just 1 single rope? i'm thinking about getting doubles but i'm not ready to get into the whole half rope technique. would it be a hassle for the belayer to use doubles even if they're used as halfs?

Best advice I've gotten: when you get to your anchor divide the space in your head left side gets one rope, right side gets the other. Be paranoid when they cross. If you have two climbers, they will never be climbing at the same rate so you have to seperate these strands 100%