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By Marcy
From Tempe/Tuscon, AZ
Apr 29, 2014
the tornado

Jefe, from Merriam-Webster:

comprise: (transitive verb) to be made up of (something); to include or consist of (something).


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By jefe
Apr 29, 2014

Oops, sorry, misread.
But thanks for the snark.
I just know that your husband has expressed his feelings that seeing bolts on other routes compromises (look it up yourself) his experience while leading gear routes.
I understand that.
I also respect his traditional ethic and climbing abilities.


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By Jack Ubaek
From tucson
Apr 29, 2014
Alana B

Eric D wrote:
Yikes!!!

what 'yikes'? that's a big ass rock. when did 33 routes become too many for a bazillion square feet of climbing area?

And the rest of you, get over yourselves for shits sake. a couple smidges of glue in the hallowed stronghold and your delicate little world comes crashing down around you? you want perfect, pristine, unchipped rock go out and climb el cap. oh wait, nvm.

or is it that you think by 'allowing' the gluing that people will start flying down from the sky pouring glue all over everything? or is glue heresy as ordained by some divine stronghold doctrine inscribed into the heart of rockfellow by god himself?

how do you nitwits find time to stress out of this crap? poor russ sounds like his hair just burst into flames having read that someone could give two shits about glued holds. seriously, i just dont get the whole sanctimonious climbing ethic crusader mentality.


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By Russ Walling
From www.FishProducts.com
Apr 29, 2014
Russ

Jack Ubaek wrote:
what 'yikes'? that's a big ass rock. when did 33 routes become too many for a bazillion square feet of climbing area? And the rest of you, get over yourselves for shits sake. a couple smidges of glue in the hallowed stronghold and your delicate little world comes crashing down around you? you want perfect, pristine, unchipped rock go out and climb el cap. oh wait, nvm. or is it that you think by 'allowing' the gluing that people will start flying down from the sky pouring glue all over everything? or is glue heresy as ordained by some divine stronghold doctrine inscribed into the heart of rockfellow by god himself? how do you nitwits find time to stress out of this crap? poor russ sounds like his hair just burst into flames having read that someone could give two shits about glued holds. seriously, i just dont get the whole sanctimonious climbing ethic crusader mentality.


Some of us still care Jack. Chipping and gluing should not be tolerated. Period. Don't bring the crags down to your level. Rise up to the challenge the rock provides. Simple really, unless you are blinded by ego and the unabashed need to top out at any cost. The rock is a limited resource. Don't ruin it, just learn to climb better.


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By Eric D
From Gnarnia
Apr 29, 2014
Born again on the last move of the Red Dihedral, high Sierras.

Hi Jack,

You are probably right that a piece of rock that big could hold 33 independent lines. I said yikes because Sheepshead simply has way too many bolts for me. Too many variations and too many routes crossing each other. It would be a prouder formation with fewer, yet fully independent, lines.

And regarding your latest post - Even if you have a different opinion, you should recognize that the climbing community see things differently than you do and that the larger community should continue to influence how things are done.


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By Jack Ubaek
From tucson
Apr 29, 2014
Alana B

understood eric and russ. thanks for not taking my rant personally.

honestly most of my head scratching comes from the fact that ive never met anyone in person that is at all wound up over things like glue, chain draws, chipped and crowded routes. the only people i see bothered by that stuff is a few folks here in the forums. being a newcomer to the area its been confusing trying to get a good sampling of the local mean ethic. the std deviation is just off the chart.


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By Russ Walling
From www.FishProducts.com
Apr 29, 2014
Russ

Jack Ubaek wrote:
understood eric and russ. thanks for not taking my rant personally. honestly most of my head scratching comes from the fact that ive never met anyone in person that is at all wound up over things like glue, chain draws, chipped and crowded routes. the only people i see bothered by that stuff is a few folks here in the forums. being a newcomer to the area its been confusing trying to get a good sampling of the local mean ethic. the std deviation is just off the chart.


At one time, the Tucson folks had some of the highest ethics going. That has obviously changed and I can't imagine who you are running into that actually condone the chipping, gluing and all the rest. But, don't let a few number chasers and careless rock stewards sway the point: Chipping and Gluing is bad for many reasons and should just not be done. It seems the active chippers are not that proud of their actions since they are always hiding instead of tooting their chipping horn. Why is that? Because they know it is bullshit yet they just can't help themselves when it comes to permanently altering the rock for their personal gain. It is shameful and they know it, so they hide their actions.

As an aside, out here in Josh, not only is chipping/gluing illegal, but it will most likely get the chisel stuffed up the perps ass if they are caught doing the deed. And that is a fairly widespread given in these parts. There are a vast majority of climbers that still care, and quite a few that take this stuff real serious, and not just on the forums.


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By Greg Opland
Administrator
Apr 29, 2014
Georgeous!

I'm scratching my head about anyone that would condone chipping and gluing, let alone the capital offense I consider the actual practice. Chipping and gluing have no place in climbing. Its wrong, weak, and selfish and if we as a community don't take a stance against it, things will only get worse.


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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Apr 29, 2014
modern man

jesus f'in christ the ethical traddies are at it again! I wonder how well the tradiban take advice from sport climbers? hmmmm

I can name many crags all over the world that were chipped/comfortized AND glued but in this alter world its mainly all on SA huh?

AZ witch hunt, get him boys!(or girlfriends of the boys)


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By Russ Walling
From www.FishProducts.com
Apr 29, 2014
Russ

MJMobes wrote:
jesus f'in christ the ethical traddies are at it again! I wonder how well the tradiban take advice from sport climbers? hmmmm I can name many crags all over the world that were chipped/comfortized AND glued but in this alter world its mainly all on SA huh? AZ witch hunt, get him boys!(or girlfriends of the boys)


On this one it is all on SA. He seems to be the one doing the deed down in the Stronghold, so yeah, the light is shining on him right now.

If by "at it again" you mean speaking out against chipping and gluing, then you are correct. Do you have an opposing stance on the issue? Were you actually trying to say something? Your message is muddled.


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By Mike Diesen
From Sierra Vista, AZ
Apr 30, 2014

First off Marcy, could you ask your husband to email me. I've emailed him a few times with no response.

Second, I've use mortar to reinforce some blocks in the Stronghold.


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By jefe
Apr 30, 2014

All this talk of active chipping.
I thought the event everyone was still pissed about was the one Rockefellow episode, which was close to twenty years ago.
If people are perpetuating the idea that this is still going on just to make SA pay for past indiscretions, that's fucked up. If it is indeed still going on that's another story.
Are there more? Spill the beans people.
That Rockefellow deal sucked for everyone, especially the rock, but the route was removed and by Grossman's (ElCap) logic those edges should be erased by erosion any day now.
I'm not condoning chipping, no way, in fact, I hate it. But c'mon, everyone has made mistakes. I know I've made'm, the Fish's made'm, Jimbo, Geir, all of us. Sometimes it's the rock that suffers, sometimes it's someone's feelings. I would hope to be forgiven for mine, you too probably, right?

So lay it the fuck out there with some proof or stfu and let it go.

Because, you know why? Yet another thread drifted to the tar+feathering of SA, when it was originally about spamming the site.
Convenient how that works eh?
Cochiseclimbing spammed the site and toofast has been spamming the fuck out of the site for years. Do I really care? No. I, and many others, benefit from it. Geir gets his topos out there and makes money teaching people self rescue. This is a valuable contribution to SoAz climbing and climbers.
Even FishProducts.com enters our vision every time we view this thread. Great! Fucking sick products and service from a genuine American piton banging valley boy hardman.
I don't have a problem with any of you fuckers spamming the site.

What I have a problem with is the continued slander for actions that may or may not be happening now by the person you're accusing or any number of anonymous people climbing at the Stronghold.
It benefits no one.
Your feud benefits no one.

Defending the rock is a good thing,
attacking people isn't.

Put up or shut up bitches.

Rant over.


Ps- no red pints were consumed during this rant. :-)


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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Apr 30, 2014
modern man

^^^well put^^^


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By Greg Opland
Administrator
Apr 30, 2014
Georgeous!

Jefe - my understanding is that it isn't just the one route, there are more.

And I haven't said much of anything about Scott, just against the practice.


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By Jimbo
Apr 30, 2014

Let's see... what would be the best way to teach future generations that chipping holds is unforgivable. How about Scott, the chipper and guide book author, doing a full mia culpa in his new guide book?? When the perpetrator comes out and fully admits to screwing up it's much more effective a deterrent than someone else bitching about it.

At this point it's not about bashing Scott, everyone knows what he did. It's about preventing this sort of activity in the future. Judging by Brian's post and others it appears there are still climbers out there that think it's OK to chip and glue at will.

There are other routes that have been chipped by Scott in the Stronghold. The route Geir and I took down was not a one off.


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By Hendrixson
Administrator
From Tucson, AZ
Apr 30, 2014
Enjoying 'Ground Affects'.

I would like to reiterate that to the best of my knowledge no chipping or gluing has happened in the Stronghold in years. In my limited Cochise climbing adventures I have noticed some gluing and only one instance of chipping, which was at Sweet Rock and not by the FA.

In the interest of moving forward rather than talking in circles, why not utilize Mountain Project? List the offending routes and tag them as 'Chipped'. Additionally add comments to routes so that other climbers can be made aware of these conditions. Lastly star the route as you see fit. This would allow climbers to make informed decisions and have the experience they seek. If manufactured routes are abhorred by the community with bomb ratings future developers may think twice about emulating the practice.


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By Geir
From Tucson, AZ
Apr 30, 2014
Toofast

John,

Here is my take, take it in a friendly tone.

I have climbed extensively in the Stronghold. Routes were being put up with glue from around 1996 to 2009. The Access Fund had a policy specifically against gluing and chiseling on their website as early as 1999 so by this point I think it should have been clear nationally that it was not a wise practice.

More specifically in the Stronghold, which had a pretty darn stiff local ethic of ground up development until the early 90s, I don't think it was ever acceptable to the local community to manufacture holds.

I have come across numerous instances of gluing and aggressive cleaning while working on my own guide. I have been told about, but not yet gone to confirm on my own, more possible chiseling. This is beyond the Rockfellow route. To be kind, I will not go into specifics on the forum, if anyone wants to talk about this they can contact me personally.

Since updated guides are being prepared for the public, I want to be frank and say I don't want to see routes put up in this manner passed on to the current or following generations of Stronghold climbers. Jim, Russ, and Greg have all wisely noted that the practices will continue by others if they are not questioned. I think routes in Cochise with manufactured holds should be excluded from the guidebooks and the people who established them can kindly, quietly clean them up.

There are plenty of well done routes in the Stronghold that the FAs can be proud of, let's focus on those.

Jefe, thanks for the nice comment earlier in the thread about my climbing and ethic. I thought that was very cool of you.

Mike, I see that you've been trying to get a hold of me and will PM you.

Thanks,

Geir


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By MJW
From Boise, ID
May 2, 2014

^^^+++11 to Jefe...that's right, this one goes to eleven

First, I don't think BrianB is condoning any kind of negative shenanigans on the rock by Scott or anyone. I think he's saying....simply layoff Scott and appreciate the goodness he's provided. Swallow your bitter pills and go climbing. Try to have a good time you grumpy focks. It's just climbing. The chipping incident is long dead. People make mistakes. Move on. Improve your skills, crank the scary testpieces and then maybe you've earned the right to pound your chest a little? Itíll go along much better with your inflated ego's and sense of right. There are other 'notable' Tucson locals who've done their fair share of gluing and chiseling on Mt. Lemmon, Milagrosa, El Cap, elsewhere too. Why no beat-down for them? Are the rules different elsewhere? Are those routes "noted" in the guidebooks

If you don't like Scott's newer routes don't climb them. Take some of your time and money and put up your own roues in "better" style..."if" you got the skills and the balls. Fact is, there's not whole lot of real skill and balls going around out there. Mostly ignent ball-cupping and intardnet bashers. I've known Scott for many years and have spent countless hours belaying or doing 2nd ascents of routes he's put up down in the Stronghold...and elsewhere. Many of these are not published and unless you got the info 1st hand from Scott you've likely never heard of or climbed these routes. I will tell you straight up they are blemish-free, outstanding..and not bolt ladders. Many of the bolts put in on lead.

Most importantly, Scott get's the highest marks for being a great human being. One of the friendliest, most generous people I've had the pleasure to call a friend....never mind climbing. This thread reeks of the destructive shite I see on STaco. Bunch of bitter washed-up oldtimers hanging on to delusions of yesteryear. Jimbou and Geir...what other routes are altered?? Let's hear it. Who did it? Sounds like you guys know all and are ready to issue judgment? Did you talk to the offender face-to-face about this? Intardnet bashing is the highest form of **cun...yness**...fyi

Mike Witt


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By Jimbo
May 2, 2014

MJW,

Brian specifically said "he could not care less" care if a hold is chipped or glued.

I have had a face to face with Scott and I told him the same thing I've stated on this site.

I have also on many occasions praised Scott's routes and his tireless efforts doing new routes.

I have beat down others that have chipped on Mt. Lemmon, ask John Baker about this.

I do put up my own routes and I don't chip holds.

Why are you asking me and Geir about other chipped routes in the Stronghold. Ask Scott. Oh wait he refused to fess up when we took down his route the last time, so why would he admit to any other chipping now?

The whole point of my post was for Scott do admit he screwed up, talk about in his new guide and hopefully prevent future climbers from chipping holds.

Remember those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

You and others are all a bit too eager to insist we move on, to pretend the chipping didn't happen. Seems like your more interested in protecting Scott than preventing chipping and gluing in the future.


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By Alex Kirkpatrick
May 2, 2014

Thought provoking article about chipping Published in Rock and Ice a year ago or so. Nothing earth-shattering but I would say its worth a read.

www.rockandice.com/lates-news/making-the-grade?page=1


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By MJW
From Boise, ID
May 3, 2014

Jimboooo,

A point-to-point reply...and then I will peace out of this filthy thread for good. Sorry to be a little mean....it's good for you.

Brian specifically said "he could not care less" care if a hold is chipped or glued.

- Yes. I read it. A bold statement. My 1st impression was he's not serious. More of an ironical twist to get ones attention. Making a point that there's a bigger picture than just our personal climbing ethical viewpoints. I don't know Brian but he looks like he's a good steward to the rock. Personally, I've climbed plenty of routes in many states that were altered in some way. Many of which I didn't know about until afterwards. Honestly, I had a great time on them and didn't really care. I was more upset by the litter and general impact on the ground.

I have had a face to face with Scott and I told him the same thing I've stated on this site.

- Good on ya. If there are more provlems you should continue to meet with Scott. Like a man. This intardnet nonsense is so coweirdly.

I have also on many occasions praised Scott's routes and his tireless efforts doing new routes.

- You should. He would do the same and probably does. Better yet...have a conversation with Scott that doesn't revolve around climbing rocks. See what happens. Just a suggestion. Free of charge$$

I have beat down others that have chipped on Mt. Lemmon, ask John Baker about this.

- If that's what you need to do then good. Have you been selective or chastised all? I'm pretty sure our chipper/offender lists match. Besides Scott, I hope you are addressing this stuff in person with these folks. Get all of your peeps together and have an intervention if it bothers the masses. This is how it worked before you could sit in your creepy robe and slander people from behind your laptop. Again...don't be a pussy. Kinda the moral of this story.

I do put up my own routes and I don't chip holds.

-High Five!!!

Why are you asking me and Geir about other chipped routes in the Stronghold. Ask Scott. Oh wait he refused to fess up when we took down his route the last time, so why would he admit to any other chipping now?

- I'm asking YOU b/c you are the one talking s**t and apparently have the damning evidence. If one is innocent and accused of a crime the burden of proof falls upon the accuser. Calling someone guilty until proven innocent? That's how they roll in France. Are you a moron...this is basic s**t Jim. If there are other infractions of note you need to get your ass out there and chop the route, get pics, etc. If you are going to post it here we're waiting. You can milk this thread for another few years at the very least.

The whole point of my post was for Scott do admit he screwed up, talk about in his new guide and hopefully prevent future climbers from chipping holds.

- The point of your post is to destroy Scott's character while you are sitting behind your keyboard. The word is out about chipping. Everyone got the message long ago. There is nothing YOU can do to stop people from altering climbs or doing anything else douchey that humans are capable of. The character assassination approach is not working for you. Here is the REALITY. Scott has more skill, energy, and vision than you and it causes butthurt. My advice...get down to the SH and make your own history! Plenty of rock left. Have fun no worries.

Remember those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

- Remember...those that fail to realize they are grumpy assholes are doomed to remain bitter GAH's

You and others are all a bit too eager to insist we move on, to pretend the chipping didn't happen. Seems like your more interested in protecting Scott than preventing chipping and gluing in the future.

- Yes eager!! Let's move on. Be happy..crank the rads
- No pretending..chipping happened...we all agree on that. Hopefully it won't ever happen again. It will somewhere/someday. But we all get it Jimbo...thx.
- Scott doesn't need protecting. Personally, I'd like to see you two in a MMA
cage with 6oz gloves ;-)

OK....lets bury this nonsense. If you guys get in the ring let me know. I'm a solid cut man ;-)
Mikee


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By Jimbo
May 3, 2014

Oh Mickee who sounds butt hurt now???

I like Brian and he's done some cool stuff in the back country, which is why I was so shocked at his post.

I have talked with John Baker face to face. We're cool.

Fact is Scott has never come out publicly and admitted to what he did. He relies on tools like you to defend his actions and come to his rescue when guys like me call him out.

Scott definitely has more energy than I. More skill and vision... that's debatable.

I've done at least 40 new routes down in the stronghold. Ground up scare fests for the most part. So Scott's bolt lines crisscrossing old routes and each other really don't impress me so much. (Other than the time and expense to drill that many bolts!)

I would argue that Scott has done the Stronghold more of a disservice than a service with his rampant drilling. So his "vision" is not something I want to emulate.

I've done somewhere around a thousand new routes over the years. If making history was my goal I think I've done it. So no Scott envy here. Sorry to bust your bubble.

Fact is, if we went down and chopped more routes you and the rest of the Ayers tool box would rant and rave about how we should have left it alone or let Scott go fix it. Which he would never do because then he would have to admit to the offense. You just need to look at the shit storm thread from the last chopped route to confirm this fact.

I still stand by my assertion that until Scott does a full mea culpa, on a public forum, he's the coward not me.

I probably won't grant your wish for blood and call Scott into the ring. So sorry.




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By brian benedon
May 6, 2014
fa Dog Fights Alright .-11, Dog Park

Now thats stirring the pot... I'm glad to see people passionate about climbing, ethics are important. I do care, like most of you I've lived my life around my climbing obsession. Mike and Jefe thanks for reading between the lines. I used to get upset about things I didn't approve of and skip bolts because I thought I had something to prove. It seams that I climb for different reasons now, I prefer to enjoy my time out, focus on the good things, I'm not looking for evidence of modifications. Of course I would rather climb all natural and unmodified routes. Thats not always possible.

Life is too short to go around being bitter. People are important, the little stuff really doesn't matter.
Scott is a nice guy he does't deserve the constant bashing.

Current ethics violations should be handled with professionalism. SACC might be the proper format in that case. A "civil" thread dealing with certain issues is would be welcome and most likely more influential, that can be done without pointing fingers.


PS I saw a preview of some parts of the book. Tanya is doing a great job, it should be really good.


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By jbak
May 7, 2014
A steep climb too.

Haha. Wow. Just stumbled on this. Talk about thread drift ! And I find I am despicable. Cheers to everyone I know from this thread... which is just about every participant.


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By Hendrixson
Administrator
From Tucson, AZ
May 7, 2014
Enjoying 'Ground Affects'.

Thanks for sharing the article, Alex. Definitely a thought-provoking read.


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