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Cochise Stronghold: Toofast Topos & Cochise Climbing
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By Charles Vernon
From Tucson, AZ
Mar 7, 2014
Eric Sophiea wrote:
This is the best idea ever. Charles, I'll trade costume pieces with you! I'm thinking a Poo Chest with Gorilla legs and a Horse Head. Oh, did I mention I have a horse costume too? Yeah. This is gonna be epic!


No can do, it's a onesie. But maybe we can have a wrestling match or something.

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By Eric Sophiea
Mar 7, 2014
Licking the cat with googly-eyes.
Russ Walling wrote:
MP is a moderated site with posting and usage guidelines. Every day they limit what you get to see, so in fact your are already well down that road you don't want to take.


Very true. It's worth noting that those posting and usage guidelines are relatively transparent and I have looked at them and made a decision about my usage within the context of the guidelines. Arguing that there are already posting and usage guidelines and therefore adding more limitations is inherently ok is a fallacious argument (it's a variation on the "Slippery Slope"). Just because we already have limits does not necessarily make more limits ok. I'd rather keep MP as open as possible, even if some (or a lot) of what gets posted is not useful in my opinion.

For the record, this isn't about my personal feelings about links or advertising or people's conduct on MP. If MP were moderated based on what I personally think is valuable or appropriate, a vast majority of it would get chopped. Let's just keep it open and let each person judge how they want to negotiate it.

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By Eric Sophiea
Mar 7, 2014
Licking the cat with googly-eyes.
Charles Vernon wrote:
No can do, it's a onesie. But maybe we can have a wrestling match or something.


This is just getting weird. I'm in!

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By jefe
Mar 7, 2014
What a fucking bummer thread.
Keep on throwing stones and enjoy the view from your glass houses.
Sick of these stupid fucking feuds.

Thanks for all the killer topos Geir
And thanks for all the bitchin routes Scott.

Sent from my adobe house in downtown Switzerland.

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By Larry
From SoAZ
Mar 7, 2014
What jefe said!

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By Robbie Mackley
From Tucson, AZ
Mar 7, 2014
Me and Holden at the "Matterhorn"
+10 Jefe

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By Jimbo
Mar 8, 2014
Jefe, Robbie and Larry you guys have to lighten up.

I've got six weeks of no climbing ahead of me and I can't fill that time with nothing but a bunch of Kumbaya, we are the world, crap.

I pat people on the back all the time on this site. But controversy is much more interesting to read and comment on.

It's just climbing for Christ's sake. None of this stuff really matters.

I embrace the controversy and the warm and fuzzy.

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By jefe
Mar 8, 2014
Jimbo- good luck with the six week court ordered Route Poacher Time Out Program.
Come back strong. ;-)

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By Jimbo
Mar 8, 2014
Thanks Jefe,

Just keep the slander coming. Gives me a reason to log on in the morning!

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By Hendrixson
Administrator
From Tucson, AZ
Mar 9, 2014
Enjoying 'Ground Affects'.
Apologies for the lack of presence in this thread, I away climbing and camping at Isolation Canyon the past two days.

Thanks to all of you who constructively shared your opinions on the matter. Since Nick provided clear guidance and the posts in question have been removed or altered I consider the issue resolved. Thank you cochiseclimbing and Geir for promptly responding.

If anyone comes across content they feel violates the community and owner standards within my purview of Southern Arizona let me know. Ideally do this in a public manner for transparency. I have and will continue to publicly document any modifications I make.

Russ Walling, in answer to your question I have no administrative privileges in the forum. The administrators for each forum are listed under the forum heading. For this forum they are: Peter Franzen, Adam Stackhouse, M Sprague, saxfiend, Chris treggE. There are a number of at large mods as well.

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By Hendrixson
Administrator
From Tucson, AZ
Mar 9, 2014
Enjoying 'Ground Affects'.
Speaking as an individual, not an administrator, here...

I love climbing and can discuss it for hours. That Mountain Project provides liked minded individuals a place to gather is fantastic -- it saves our real life friends from ad nauseum discussions of sick moves, sketchy gear, and killer beta. That said I have no tolerance for childish taunts, name calling, and pointless controversy in real life or on the web.

Yes, there are a handful of routes in the Stronghold that have been chipped and glued. These routes are in the slim minority. Climbing ethics are fluid and have evolved over time. That there was experimentation in these methods comes as no surprise. As far as I'm aware there has been no chipping or gluing in the Stronghold in years. Seems like a moot issue.

As far as including such routes in a guidebook, I want information not a manifesto. Note that the route is chipped and/or glued and move on. Let me, the end user, make the choice. Simply omitting the route, while the author's prerogative, will likely just cause confusion.

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By Chris treggE
Administrator
From Madison, WI
Mar 9, 2014
This problem haunted my dreams for 6 years after f...
Hendrixson wrote:
As far as including such routes in a guidebook, I want information not a manifesto. Note that the route is chipped and/or glued and move on. Let me, the end user, make the choice. Simply omitting the route, while the author's prerogative, will likely just cause confusion.


As a sometime visiting climber to Cochise, I'd rather have all routes included.

I like Hendrixson's suggestion, and personally am looking forward to a new guidebook.

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By Jimbo
Mar 10, 2014
All the routes should be in the guide book, chipped or not. I am, however, eager to see how Scott addresses a chipped line in the route description in his new book and if all the routes that have been chipped will be in the guide.

I wish Scott and Tanya all the best in this guide book endeavor. If they do as good a job with the guide as they do with new routes it will undoubtedly be a great guide book.

For me personally buying a Cochise guide from Scott would be akin to buying a sensitivity training book from Attila the Hun. I just can't deal with the disconnect.

I would also like to remind everyone who is suggesting we "move on" from the chipping, that those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.


A full mia culpa from Scott in the intro of the book would be in order. Who better to remind future generations that chipping is crime against nature and all climbers than the chipper himself.

Scott has created hundreds of wonderful routes that hundreds of people will continue to enjoy for years to come. Because of this Scott can, and for the most part has, been forgiven for his transgressions in the Stronghold. This, I think, is as it should be.

However forgiving is not forgetting.

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By Jack Ubaek
From tucson
Mar 10, 2014
Alana B
cochiseclimbing wrote:
Others will snag those second ascents out from under you.

Noooooooooo!!!!!!! the horror!

cochiseclimbing wrote:
This project will loose money and publishers have turned me down because of that.

wow $46 and your going to lose money? isn't sqeezing the lemon like $30? and thats from a guy that has been posting his routes on mp free for years and has made no effort to keep his routes and areas secret. that guy must be losing tons of money then. isnt he on his 2nd edition now?

just making observations here. once the guidebook comes out the routes and areas will all be posted up to mp for everyone so i really hope thats being factored into the financial expectations. personally thats too steep for my blood. i may be forced to wait for the online version, sorry.

best of luck to you both en your endevors. i know it cant be easy putting a book together. thanks again geir for all your hard work replacing bolts and making free topos.

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By Mike Diesen
From Sierra Vista, AZ
Apr 24, 2014
Just wondering if Geir is still around. I tried signing up for TooFast topos a couple months back and still haven't heard anything. I've sent him a couple emails and still no response. If anyone knows the best way to get ahold of him I'd really appreciate it.

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By Eric Sophiea
Apr 28, 2014
Licking the cat with googly-eyes.
Mike, try messaging Geir via Mountain Project.

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By brian benedon
Apr 28, 2014
fa Dog Fights Alright .-11, Dog Park
Jimbo; best wishes on your recovery.

forgive, forget, lay-off!

Dudes, SA has done more for the S. AZ climbing community than anyone else ever has or ever will.
How many climbers go back and clean and fix up routes so others can enjoy them safely?
I could not tell you how many times i've had a great time because of Scott's hard work and dedication. I remember taking many runs on The Breeze thanks to a re-installed hold. I appreciate the time and $ spent.When I climb his routes I could not care less if a hold or placement has been creatively modified or reinforced. If I did know I would most likely be glad for it. SA is a pro, he puts up quality routes. He puts more thought and effort into his routes than anyone else around here. If you ask for it, he will give you detailed beta.
If you don't enjoy his routes, try asking Creater for some route beta.
Before you ethics police make any negative comments, ask your self; what have I done for the community lately?

Jefe, looks like you got 6 weeks to red pint those routes down there. oops, only two week left.

$46 does seem like a lot for a book. in perspective, that is about how much I spent for gas to drive out there last weekend. I would give SA the $46 just for putting up routes. In fact i've offered, he always says to donate to the Access Fund.

Imagine if Toofast and Cochise Climbing would consolidate their efforts.That is about as likely as Guns n Roses getting back together.

Piece,

Brian

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By cochiseclimbing
Apr 28, 2014
My favorite place
Thank you Brian for giving me the opportunity to clarify some confusion in previous posts. The guidebook is $39.99 and if you need it shipped to you I ask that you include $6 for shipping. If you are local we will have a release party and you can celebrate with us and pick up your copy. I, for one, will be celebrating…

A guidebook of this magnitude can only be made with help form the community and so far I have had over 50 people donate photos. Again, if you have photos please send them to me and if there are routes you have put up please contact me. This book will be as comprehensive as I can get. Even if you just climbed an obscure route and have some beta that you think is important-please get it to me. This book will cover hundreds of routes. There are 33 on the Sheepshead alone and I have yet to number the Rockfellow Group.

And jefe, can't wait to bring you more of Scott's "bitchin routes". You guys have no idea what is out there. Better start training now! If you have seen my blog on our website cochiseclimbing.com you will see that I have been. The Stronghold is our community's oyster and I am inspired to crack into it.

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By Russ Walling
From www.FishProducts.com
Apr 28, 2014
Russ
brian benedon writes: "When I climb his (Scott Ayres) routes I could not care less if a hold or placement has been creatively modified or reinforced."

Really? Fucking really???? Therein lies the problem.

I still want to know if all the chipped, glued and manufactured SA routes will be in the new guide. Legit question Mods...

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By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Apr 29, 2014
tanuki
brian benedon wrote:
I could not care less if a hold or placement has been creatively modified


I don't want to get too far into this, but I do care. There are a lot of gray areas regarding what is acceptable in route development. Modifying a hold on granite is wrong. Period.

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By Greg Opland
Administrator
Apr 29, 2014
Georgeous!
brian benedon wrote:
When I climb his routes I could not care less if a hold or placement has been creatively modified or reinforced.


This is really disturbing to read. A guy has put up a lot of accessible routes with lots of bolts, so we'll give him a pass? Understand if you're friends with Scott and want to support him, but chipping and gluing? Unacceptable. Big time. Regardless of the type of rock.

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By Jimbo
Apr 29, 2014
Brain,

Thanks for the well wishes. I'm back climbing, badly.

I think I have contributed to the community a bit through the years, so I do have enough cred to comment on some of Scotts regrettable practices.

So by your argument, if I volunteer at a soup kitchen everyone should forgive me for being a pedophile!!

No chance. I'm not going to forgive or forget, and I'm going to continue to remind people that this kind of activity is unacceptable.

I'm with Russ and NC on this. If your OK with chipped holds your part of the problem not part of the solution.

I'm amazed a backcountry guy like you is OK with chipping and cluing in an area like the Stronghold.

Did Scott Ayers slip you the Koolaid or did you drink it of your own volition?

Seriously dude WTF!

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By Marcy
From Tempe/Tuscon, AZ
Apr 29, 2014
the tornado
There are many people who have made, and continue to make, a hell of a lot of positive contributions to climbing in SoAZ.

Tightly bolted "safe" routes comprise just one small aspect of the climbing opportunities in the Stronghold. If that is what you have experienced or that is your preference, cool, but it does not equate to the person who drilled those routes having "done more for the S. AZ climbing community than anyone else ever has or ever will." Not by a long-shot.

Regarding chipping and gluing, it is quite disturbing that this shit exists in such a beautiful place, it equally disturbing that some choose to accept and support it. Seriously indeed, WTF.

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By jefe
Apr 29, 2014
Brian said

"Red pint"

By the sound of that post I'd venture to guess there were more than a few red pints last night.

Chipping is bad mmmmmmkay?



And Marcy, safely bolted routes compromise climbing opportunities?
Would you elaborate?

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By Eric D
From Gnarnia
Apr 29, 2014
Born again on the last move of the Red Dihedral, h...
cochiseclimbing wrote:
There are 33 on the Sheepshead alone.


Yikes!!!

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