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Cob rock - new rappel route
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By Crisco Jackass
From Grand Junction, CO
Aug 15, 2013

I'll keep my loud mouth out of the erosion debate and comment as constructively as I am able. You're welcome.

The second anchor seems a bit short on clipping possibilities. Two Fixe ring anchors don't provide much attachment space if you are trying to avoid clipping the rap rings. And in my opinion, a normal locker through the oval opening of the anchor plate acts as a little pry-bar and if not done in the proper sequence, can be crimped by the rap ring when the rappel is loaded.

My two-man did it fine which I'm sure will the be case 9X% of the time. But I then saw a group of four anchored in before the last rappel... My point: as a moderate trad location with high visitation, why not put in the biggest, most user friendly anchor you can. Especially considering the significant bottle-neck that this new descent presents to the new climber.


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By MikeS
From Boulder, CO
Aug 15, 2013

Crisco- if you'd like to expand the clipping space to the anchor bolts there's a reasonably easy solution.....
Build (even prerig on top) an equalized runner of your choice with a big locker at the master point and two non-lockers to clip into the rings. The big locker is your clip-in point. It's now easy thread the rope behind the non-lockers and remove them before you descend. I often carry two of these to alternate when leading multipitch rappels.
Not saying this is going to magically eliminate the inevitable bottlenecks that you describe, but maybe it will work for a few folks in the future.


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By CJC
Aug 15, 2013

Roger,

Thanks for showing up here to explain your process and the issue from your perspective. I think I speak for all of us when I say your commitment to stewardship and traditional values is deeply appreciated by the community. Your leadership and significant contributions to Colorado climbing demonstrate a lifelong passion and love for this sport and the mountains it takes place in. Thank you, maximum respect.

I was up at Cob Rock yesterday and had a chance to check out the new rappel route. Here is the sign that now greets climbers at the base:




So evidently the NW Corner is now the descent for all climbs on the main face of Cob Rock, no exceptions. The walk-off is closed. You MUST rappel the NW Corner.

Since we were alone and didn't have to be concerned about parties rapping over the top of us we climbed the Northwest Corner. Above the initial dihedral, right before the runout face starts is a new rap station. Right on the route (see photo below).This is a couple of feet above where you can fiddle in a sideways stopper if you want to bother.



This completely changes the character of the face above, which is a nice spicy little section that adds some flavor to the pitch. I didn't belay here, as I always do the route as one pitch, but many others will. Its very convenient and comfortable to do so. Proceeding on to the top we found some chain anchors at the top of the NW Corner, again right above the route. The stations are professionally installed, technically you guys did a nice job of placing the hardware.

Here are my concerns, and I say this with the understanding that you felt this was the best solution to the erosion problem and installed the rap route with the best intentions.

1. The NW corner route has been sacrificed. This is a decades old Boulder Canyon classic that has just become a busy rappel route. Its one of the best climbs of the grade around, a personal favorite, and a real asset to traditional climbers who enjoy moderate, interesting and engaging climbing. In addition to the safety concerns stemming from having to lead occasionally run-out rock while other climbers throw rappel ropes down on you from above, the aesthetics and commitment of the route have been diminished. The run-out face now has two beefy bolts below it. You WILL have to climb through rappelling parties while you climb this and most other sections of the route. It is no longer safe to lead when others are or might be descending the rap route.



2. Clusterfucks at the stations: As mentioned before, IMO climbers on the NW Corner and/or perhaps Empor will use the bolted stations for belays. Its hard to imagine climbers on the NW Corner route not at least clipping the belay before they commit to the face above.
This is one of the main problems of establishing a rappel route on, over, or near existing climbs. What will descending climbers do when they arrive at a station to find either other descending parties or climbers belaying on the route? If they're at the top chances are they'll do the walk-off. So while seemingly solving one problem, another has been created. This is a popular cliff and at times there are multiple parties on several of the routes. Now they all have to descend a single rap route, and descend through climbers coming up the face possibly using the rap stations for belays.

3. Lack of community input prior to rappel route installation: I am a member of the BCC and I never heard anything about this plan other than speaking with Roger at Cob Rock a week before the raps were installed. Although I do appreciate the gesture, the request for feedback after the fact is insufficient to properly address concerns and guide sustainable action. The impact to the NW Corner route is severe enough to warrant solicitation of input from the BCC if not the community at large. We live in an age when its quite easy to post your concerns, ideas, proposed solutions, etc. with the click of a mouse. I'd like to see the BCC make an attempt for consensus, perhaps modeled after the successful Eldo and Flatiron fixed protection process.

4. The eroded slope isn't that bad. I know many will disagree with me here but I've done this descent dozens of times and never knocked anything larger than a pebble off. There are much worse approaches and descents around the area. Its certainly showing heavy impact but its not really steep enough to be dangerous. Perhaps signage, cairns, establishment of a main trail would help? Anyway people are still going to use it, those who don't wish to rappel or can't because the stations are jammed up. Rehabilitation of that area is years away from your own estimation, if its even possible.

Now some suggestions if the rappel route is absolutely going to remain: Please move the intermediate station down 5' to the next (bigger) ledge down. This will help retain the commitment of the route since the anchors won't help protect the run-out face. It will also help keep climbers from belaying there since its only 25-30' off the ground, too early in the route for most to bother. It would also help climbers having to ascend below and through rappelling parties at the intermediate station since it is below where the NW Corner veers left below the face. It would still be unsafe to lead the route but perhaps not quite as bad.

My 60m rope had way more than enough room to reach this lower ledge. A 50m probably even would. Also please add to the signage a note to climbers that they may be rappelling over other parties and to please use caution. Also please remove the BCC logo from the signage, as I understand this organization had nothing to do with the installation of the rappel route.

Thanks for your consideration of these concerns and suggestions and once again I really appreciate your tireless efforts to protect and improve Boulder's climbing destinations.

Cheers, CJC


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By Roger Briggs
Aug 16, 2013

CJC – Thanks for your comments and constructive spirit - I think your suggestion about moving the midway anchor lower is worth looking at. You said it was 5 feet lower but I wondered if that was a typo since there seems to be no ledge 5 feet lower. Is it more like 20 feet? I would like to go up there and look at it, but unfortunately I had a small back surgery yesterday so I won’t be hiking around (or rappelling) for a while. Maybe some others could look into it? Also, I’ve asked a friend to remove the signs – they were intended to be informational, but they do not yet reflect the official position of the BCC. At our next board meeting on Sept 4, we will no doubt be discussing this and I will probably submit a proposal asking the BCC Board to support the voluntary closure of the walk-off.

I wanted to respond specifically to a couple of things you said…

“So evidently the NW Corner is now the descent for all climbs on the main face of Cob Rock, no exceptions. The walk-off is closed. You MUST rappel the NW Corner.”

I am hoping climbers will adopt a voluntary closure of the walk-off by using the rappel route to descend, and that this becomes something that climbers are willing to do in the future, in other locations. Unfortunately (or fortunately) rappel routes are going to become more common to replace walk-offs that are deteriorating. I know that many people consider rappel routes a “convenience” (apparently a bad word), but the Cob Rock rappels are not there for convenience. There is a far different reason that rappel routes are needed in many places – to minimize our impact on the ground. The big question in my mind is, how much do we care about that?

You say: “The eroded slope isn't that bad. I know many will disagree with me here but I've done this descent dozens of times and never knocked anything larger than a pebble off. There are much worse approaches and descents around the area. Its certainly showing heavy impact but its not really steep enough to be dangerous. Perhaps signage, cairns, establishment of a main trail would help? Anyway people are still going to use it, those who don't wish to rappel or can't because the stations are jammed up. Rehabilitation of that area is years away from your own estimation, if its even possible”.

I’m not saying the slope is a problem because it’s dangerous, but because we have destroyed so much natural habitat. The remaining trees are going to die as their

Cob Rock damage.
Cob Rock damage.
roots are further exposed. I think this is a very important thing to take on, and do something about. Part of the climbing stewardship movement is to raise the awareness of our impacts on the ground, and elevate the level of its importance to us. This is one of humanity’s big problems right now – not owning up to our own footprint – and I think it’s just as important in climbing is it is anywhere else. I believe that climbers can and will move universally toward this ethic – that our footprint on nature is actually more important than any other aspect of climbing. In the “old days” we didn’t need to think about this, but the old days are just that!

Finally, I’d like to say that I’m not happy that the raps are needed and the slope is destroyed. I wish it were still like the 1960s when we never saw any other climbers and could do anything we wanted. Now when I walk up to a popular climb there will often be a line of other people on the climb, but if we all give a little and cooperate with each other, it turns out to be not so bad. Climbing is still a fantastic experience even with these kinds of inconveniences. So, yes, there may be a few traffic jams on these rappels, and ropes dropping down near the Hurley Direct (with some manners climbers can minimize these problems), and a 5.8 R route is now safer. I think these are all small things compared to the good we do by staying off the west side slope. I remain optimistic that we will eventually rehab the slope and have a single sustainable walk-off route down the west side. The BCC is working on that, but it will probably take a few more years.


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By jim illg
Aug 16, 2013

Full disclosure before I add my two cents to this debate. I played a direct role in the installation of these rap stations. I accompanied Roger for the reconnaissance and was present later for their actual installation.

This morning I went to Cob Rock to take down the signs posted to inform climbers of the new raps. (One sign removed, the other is MIA.) In response to CJC’s assertion that the descent trail “isn’t that bad”, I respectfully disagree. No matter how careful I was with my footsteps, which was likely a lot more careful than the average gear laden descending climber who might be distracted by the buzz of their successful ascent, I could not help but disturb, and ultimately further deteriorate that trail. The exposed tree roots and the undercut rocks indicate the erosion underway and which will surely only increase with the growth of climbing. Maybe the definition of ‘clean climbing’ should be expanded to include the minimization of peripheral damage to the crag.

Climbers will work out conflicts among themselves. We have our own etiquette and I’ll show my bias here and say I’ve rarely been disappointed by the manners of fellow trad climbers. It is not unusual for there to be occasional crowding at rappel stations and yet it all works. CJC’s point of the risk of having a rope dropped on him is on target, pun intended. Is this risk such an unusual occurrence? The incidents are avoidable with care and I have faith in the exercise of such care among my fellow climbers.

CJC’s recommendation for relocating the lower station seems to me to merit serious consideration. Roger and I haven’t discussed this so I’m quick to add that I offer only my own opinion that this solution deserves to be explored. I will try to make it up to Cob this weekend to make the raps, take photos of the lower ledge, etc. I’ll be sure to assess a relocation of the lower station while using a 60 meter rope since this is the length most in use now. CJC you seem to know this crag and the affected route well. Would you like to be involved in the effort to find an alternate location for the lower rap station? If so, we can coordinate our visits.


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By CJC
Aug 17, 2013

thanks guys absolutely I am available for this and any other stewardship projects...protecting Cob Rock while preserving the existing routes as much as possible is really important to me. appreciate you taking the time to consider my thoughts and to offer your own regarding the condition of the talus slope descent. please feel free to message me directly if you'd like. best, cjc

edit to add a pic of the lower ledge



approximate location shown here: 60m gets there with plenty of rope to spare


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By Roger Briggs
Aug 17, 2013

Thanks for your support, CJC!


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By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Aug 17, 2013
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.

I'm going to try to get up there next weekend and have a look at alternate locations.
I can easily understand the objection to changing an existing route by placing a bolt within reach of the line. This is a long-standing ethic that many climbers have. Though some might not find it important, others will. And it's not about winning or loosing or about satisfying a majority of 51%. The goal is to make this as palatable as possible. So I'd like to avoid bolts within clipping distance of the route - or it will become the route. People will belay there if they can reach it, and then you have a mess again...
I can also understand the valid concern about sending a rope down through a climbing party. It happens pretty often, even if by accident. That's a good thing to try to avoid.
But I certainly agree that the hillside there is getting to be in pretty bad shape, and it does not look even close to what a natural hillside would look like in that canyon. Having done close to 1000 routes up there at last count (well, probably more) and on most of the formations, I can say that there are few places looking that bad. Something needs to be done.
So... I'll try to make a positive contribution and go up there and look for potential rap lines as well. Let's not move this one just yet, until we have a little more time and weigh-in.


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By jim illg
Aug 17, 2013

I was in Boulder Canyon today on other business so I stopped by Cob Rock to take some photos of the ledge(s) that I believe CJC is recommending as an alternative to the location of the lower rap station.


Standing on ledge at current rap anchor looking down at alternate ledges.  The shoulder length runners are included for scale.
Standing on ledge at current rap anchor looking down at alternate ledges. The shoulder length runners are included for scale.



Closer view of ledges with runners for scale and to show area for stance.
Closer view of ledges with runners for scale and to show area for stance.




The rope is hanging from the upper rap station.  The fall line takes you very close to the alternate ledges.
The rope is hanging from the upper rap station. The fall line takes you very close to the alternate ledges.


A 60 meter rope will reach the alternate ledges and another six or seven meters beyond. The face where the bolts would likely be mounted is close to vertical and clean. The pull from a relocated anchor and the landing zone for climbers coming off rappel is just about the same as the existing lower rap station.

It seems to me that we could relocate the lower rap station and still achieve the objective of giving climbers an alternate descent to the walk-off while preserving the character of the Northwest Corner route. There's my two cents and a little extra.


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By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Aug 18, 2013
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.

OK, one thing I am not quite getting yet - does the rope still come down on a party climbing the route in this case?
Are there other solid alternatives further from the route?


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By CJC
Aug 18, 2013

Jim, looks like we are on the same page...or ledge, as it were.

Tony, yes ropes will still be thrown from above, possible onto climbers on NW or Empor. I'd personally avoid those routes unless I'm alone at the cliff, others might wish to carry on anyway. I'm not in favor of this development but IF (AS?) the rap route is here to stay, my suggestion to move the second station lower somewhat diminishes the chances of dropping your rope on top of a leader or having this done to you. because the rap route is this more plumb and the NW Corner does veer right below the head wall. at present the rap route veers right to meet it.

so lowering the station will help with congestion, and may help with rope throws/drops/pulls. hopefully the whole thing is a temporary compromise until trail work can be approved and completed to restore the original descent. climbers up at Cob will have to use commom sense, caution and care until then.

I'd love to see a diffent rap route around the right off the main face but it would land up above or onto the eroded slope, which could seem unpalatable to Roger et.al


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By Rocky_Mtn_High
From Arvada, CO
Aug 24, 2013
Lamb's Slide

Had a fun time climbing at Cob Rock today and definitely appreciated having a rap route that was conveniently accessible to the top-outs of the popular climbs. Roger thanks for making the effort to install the rap equipment; it's definitely a major improvement over the scratchy walk-off. If it needs to be moved to avoid traffic, fine, but it gets my vote for a nice improvement to the crag.


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By MC Poopypants
Aug 24, 2013
Dropping a deuce

I was able to do a single rap to the ground with a 70m from the top anchor landing between brownies and west crack. I think this could be reasonable with a 60m and 10ft of easy down climbing. So it seems possible to establish a single rap down the west side as well maybe by moving the top anchor even a foot or two to the right.

While the anchor is really convenient when no ones around I don't know that I would wait for one or more parties to get down and would likely walk.


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By CJC
Aug 24, 2013

Mike Oxlong wrote:
So it seems possible to establish a single rap down the west side as well maybe by moving the top anchor even a foot or two to the right.


or more. no one really climbs the routes uphill, this is where the rap(s) should be. the minimal amount of talus negotiating could be mitigated in an afternoon of covert trail building, it's about 20' of slope that would need to be improved.

please consider moving the raps, they're encroaching on really popular climbing routes, even changing the character of an area classic.


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By jon weekley
From Denver, Co
Aug 24, 2013
avocado gully

Used the rap route the other day. it's fine. Come back in 3 years if you want to climb NW corner and not be tempted to clip the anchor, after the bolts have been removed and the trail is no longer 5.6 ball bearings.


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By rob.calm
From Loveland, Colorado
Aug 30, 2013
Mother #1 on the Nautilus at Vedauwoo. Rob is calm on this happy offwidth

This is an observation from an average climber on the bolts. Last week I climbed North Face Central. As I got to the top and was prepared to build an anchor, I saw the new bolts about 15 feet to the right (W). So I placed a directional for the second and scrambled over to the bolts, clipped into them and belayed from there. Subsequently, the two of us rappelled using both sets of bolts. I must admit we liked that better than using the trail.

It was a weekday and not many people were at the cliff so that we didn’t interfere with anyone. No point repeating what’s already been said, viz., the bolts are a convenience, they help protect the trail from further damage, they impinge on the original experience of a cliff that’s had very little bolting.

If the bolts are to remain, the second anchor needs chains. One should consider 4 people rappelling in rain and darkness. Chains reduce the risk of accidents.

The chains do produce some comfortizing of the cliff, e.g., my using them to anchor for a belay rather than building an anchor using gear. However, that’s not such a big deal. If one wants to really comfortize the crag, replace the Tyrolean with a rope bridge.

Rob.calm


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By Locker
From Yucca Valley, CA
Aug 30, 2013
...

"ropes will still be thrown from above, possible onto climbers on NW or Empor"

Sounds like a pretty dumb place for anchors to have been added.

I haven't seen it. But if the above can be avoided by simply moving the anchors, it certainly sounds reasonable to me.


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By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Sep 6, 2013
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.

A post-script of sorts.
I and 5 other people all went up Wednesday to climb up on Cob and check out the raps Vs existing routes. This included 4 BCC board members in all. It is important to note that the BCC did not place these bolts, has not endorsed these bolts, and after a vote Weds night in the board meeting, officially chooses not to take any position on these bolts. This was not a unanimous vote, but it reflects a strong majority.

The writing below reflects my own personal position.

The first thing I did upon arrival was look around at the hillside. The level of erosion is atrocious. This is primarily a singular landslide, complete with tree roots up to 2' out of the ground in places, and, quite frankly, hard to get up without causing more of the same. This is not natural and is caused by the constant stream of climbers going up and down this hill. Some of this could be mitigated with a little diversion of traffic away from the worst of it or movement of a few key blocks of rock to create a few steps right up against the cliff. But ultimately, more will need to be done.
Sustainable trails are not easy to build on landslides of gravel and scree. We are digging a hole on that hill.

From that I surmise that it is best to do something. And with the USFS not yet allowing work there, our options are further limited, presently to installing a rap, it seems.
And so was the thought process of the folks who placed the bolts.

So let me be clear. I am not pro-bolt. I start with an anti-bolt prejudice. It's not black and white and it';s not a religion, but I do start with the premise that fixed anchors require maintenance and that they are all ticking time bombs (long fuses) that if not maintained eventually become hazards. Whereas trad anchors are user provided anew for each climber set that comes through... I despise the notion of retro-bolts, or that adding fixed anchors improves historical routes on the whole. That is from where I start.

Inspecting the lines on Cob with respect to where these bolts are, where the rope will fall when lowered or dropped, and where the rapelling climber will be and cross was the next task. Having climbed literally every single documented route on that formation, and having rapped from this and alternate positions, I have made some observations.
1) The middle set of bolts in fact lies directly on the NW Corner Route, but not in the traditional belay position.
2) These anchors move the mid-route belay to under the the rap line, at the route's left-most point. The most logical position to belay mid-route with these present is now exactly under the top rap anchors. People will belay there now, and people throw/drop/lower a rope and will rap directly over them now.
3) As the mid-anchor stands, the rapping party crosses the line at least once with a rope or while rapping and is hanging out on the route itself while rapping.
4) The D-Antonio book incorrectly shows where that route goes, which is partially why the bolters put the bolts where they did. They were somewhat "misguided."
5) The character of the route is changed. Period.
6) The alternative proposal down and left from the existing mid-route position lies directly on 'Scary Variant' but is on the ledge from which very good trad gear can be placed a few feet up from the stance. This route is not commonly climbed and the bolts would not change (much) the nature of that route, as bomber gear is right there anyway. (hand sized cams just over that).
7) Indeed, one can use a 70M to rap to the West and around the arete in one rap, crossing the NW corner and (the retro-bolted version of) Brownies on the Basin (Who let this pass for "new?" But I digress.) and to the ground 20' up the hill on not-as-bad terrain...

From this I have concluded:
1) Were it not for the erosion problem, which in my assessment is a very real and present problem already, I would personally take it upon myself to remove the bolts and tell the bolters that I did it and why. I would not want any anchors there at all... But there is a compelling reason to have a rap.
2) I looked around for better options in terms of area overall. I tried going down from the anchors on the 12a and as I had recalled, that was pretty lousy for a few reasons, including accessibility, the junk below that could plunge, getting stuck ropes, and that it doesn't go low enough to stop hillside erosion from continuing. You might as well walk off. The present 'general area' seems to be the best area in general.
3) There is no neutral territory here. These older trad lines weave a bit, and the rock is all climbable and has been all climbed. There is really no place to put the line without being on something...
4)The place that seemed best to me is the alternative "down and left" position as proposed. This moves the bolts to a palce where they are not the belay for the popular routes (not on Empor, not on NW Corner) and to where the climber can then rap without crossing those two routes. They would be on Scarey Variant, but that is not a popular line and they would not change (much) the nature of that route. It seems to be the least bad of the options.
4) There might be some benefit to slightly repositioning the top anchors to keep them off of the line and bias the rap-rope away from the line. This is a second priority to me, and absent strong feelings about it, I am not advocating or disparaging the idea of slightly moving them. If they are moved, a first-class patch job will be done, with a mind to making the former position as invisible as possible.

I have talked to Roger, the main protagonist here, about moving the bolts in the middle. He has given consent and really no argument that they should not be moved. I want to be clear - he was not invested in exactly where they ended up. He did not intend for them to change an existing route or present a logistical problem with respect to belay/rap. He just wanted to prevent the erosion situation from growing to the point where safety and access became serious issues. 2 land managers were at the meeting when this was discussed and were CLEARLY on that page. Land managers think about the land and people, not rock route protection and logistics of rapping off. So where was I...
Oh, yeah, Roger offered to help me move and patch the bolts himself, but just having had some surgery, he's kind of out for a while. He invited me to find someone else to help and gave blessing to the idea, if it was really consensus.

So I'm going to discuss with the many people I know who have been up there exactly what they think is right, and I would love to hear from the crowd here... if there are constructive and informed opinions (I consider you informed if you have been there and used these anchors and looked up that hill) before I personally take any action.

Please feel free to post here or PM me from the link in the next few weeks and share your thoughts. I'll take some action in perhaps a month or so, if the informed community has spoken...

Over and Out


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By slim
Administrator
Sep 6, 2013
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.

i still think that the main detraction is the number of ropes that are going to be thrown down onto parties below, particularly if it is windy, the group that is rapelling is unfamiliar with the routes below, etc. agree that the erosion is really, really bad though.

not sure what the best solution is. my first thought would be to try to relocate the rap station to the east side of the formation, but if i remember correctly that area is kind of a mess from old rockfall.


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By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Sep 6, 2013
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.

slim wrote:
my first thought would be to try to relocate the rap station to the east side of the formation, but if i remember correctly that area is kind of a mess from old rockfall.

Yeah, and over 1/2 70M tall too, in most places...
I did explore that to some degree, but quickly gave up.
My lack of vision though is not definitive... if you can find a good alternative in concrete detail, I'd be very happy to check it out and consider moving the anchors there.


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By CJC
Sep 6, 2013

tony, great job. appreciate you and the others spending time up there trying to sort this out. agree with most everything you said and would like to see both anchor moved if they must remain. it's still going to create problems but moving the rap route will help with the belay clusterfucks.

slim, the east face is a mess, there actually is a rap route there now but it's sketchball to get there with all the loose debris. maybe worth checking out though you never know, perhaps it could be made safe.

ultimately my biggest concern is ropes coming down on leaders, and safety for all involved. I'll probably avoid the NW corner if there are other parties around, may just stay away entirely on weekends.


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By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Sep 6, 2013
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.

Great. I am curious about where the top rap might be moved to that people think might help. Much to the climbers left though, and you hit Empor. Much to the right and you are stall above NW corner, which goes sharply right up high. Actually, were it not for the mid-route bolts, presently, the route belays at and follows the right side arete for the whole second pitch...
I don't intend to take any action at all until there seems to be a little more concrete opinion, and I am more than happy to come on up and meet anyone up there if they are ready to show me a concrete alternative proposal.


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By mountainhick
From Black Hawk, CO
Sep 6, 2013

Tony B wrote:
It is important to note that the BCC did not place these bolts, has not endorsed these bolts, and after a vote Weds night in the board meeting, officially chooses not to take any position on these bolts.


Just like govt politicians!


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By mountainhick
From Black Hawk, CO
Sep 7, 2013

Don't project any more than intended by my statement. It was just a small laugh when I saw that. No sour grapes about the rap project.

I would join the trail days if I had the physical capability Tony.


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By Roger Briggs
Sep 7, 2013

Many thanks, Tony, for stepping up and speaking out. Hope you don't get any cheap shots ... You have really summed up the issues well.


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