I'm looking to start ice climbing this winter, so I'm on the hunt for gear or at least on the hunt to see what gear I should rent. I don't want to invest in tools that are only good on easy ice and then in the near future have to buy new tools to tackle harder ice on lead. I also don't wanna break the bank though either. I have an interest in Alpine Ice as well as Water Ice.

go to the icefest in jan

you can test before you invest & it's all there for freeeee

Go to Neptune's and ask to rent the Petzl/Charlet M10 crampons and the Quark ice tools OR nomics. These seem to be the most popular and IMO are the best out there. Usually 'Tunes will deduct the first two rentals from the retail cost if you purchase them. I'm assuming here that you live in the Denver/Boulder area.

Looks around for people selling ice gear in GREAT (not just good. Tools and 'poons get misused alot) shape foor good prices.

Ill second the advice to search for a great condition pair of used tools on this site or craigslist. The front range is often full of steals on used tools. Beg your friends to borrow their tools and go to the festival and try out as much as you can before you buy.

After that Ill say that I love my Camp Awax tools, which can be had for $120 each at wilderness exchange in denver. Light weight, good clearance, easy to plunge, etc, etc.

Petzl Quarks are just as good. I tried the new Cobra, geat tools and swing, a bitch to clean sometimes.

As discussed in another thread, the only difference between the new Cobra and the new Viper is the material (and, hence, the weight) and the price (much cheaper). I like the vipers a lot and think they would be just as versatile as the Cobras.

In my opinion Greg you should go with the cobras. I've climbed with many tools before but have never felt such a solid tool as the cobra. The carbon fiber shaft is heavier than the aluminum, but it doesn't rattle and vibrate your hand like the aluminum shafts either (feels awesome). Leashes are essentially obsolete these days on WI, but may help if your a beginner. However, I don't think leashes work well with the new curved shaft design either way. It would probably be better to just go with the fang on the bottom and just work on your endurance rather than relying on leashes. If you do decide to get leashes, than I'd highly recommend carrying a spare leashless tool on your harness. As far as crampons go there are so many great pairs out there that you...almost...can't go wrong. I currently used the G14's but enjoy many others as well. Vertical spikes are a new concept and in my opinion do not necessarily make any difference if you really know how to place your feet and correctly lower your heal. That being said a horizontal spike would be better for alpine and a vertical for mixed, but that's just how I climb. If you can, than go try out several types of tools and crampons to figure out what's best for your style. Others may disagree with me on this, but I say if you're truly serious about ice climbing than go ahead and spend the money to get the good gear and don't worry about all the what ifs... good luck.

Almost all crampons for steep ice are the same now: Charlet M10/Grivel G12/BD Cyborg are variations on a theme. The Grivel Rambo is slightly different construction but they all perform about the same. Id recommend using as many as you can (as stated above) just in case you end up wit a preference but really, Id go with the best price you can find on one of these 4. Ill 100% guarantee you that with any of em it won't be the gear that hold you back.

For ice tools, the most important thing you probably want to do is get ones without the fancy ergonomic big handholds on the bottom. While some folks who get into ice climbing after becoming rock badasses can hang off leashless tools all day, its probably prudent to start out with leashes as you just don't want to fall ice climbing. I think the best leash on the market is the BD Android for many reasons.

Personally, I love my BD Cobras (old style- Id feel stupid and irresponsible shelving them just to buy the latest and greatest new shiny toy). However I know guys who always have and always will outclimb me and they have the BD Vipers which, for the price are definitely worth considering. Quarks are amazing too. There are a lot of other tools out there but if you spend much time looking at what people use you will see that for leashed tools, these 3 make up the majority. Once again, use other folks stuff or demos and see what you prefer.

Regarding boots, if you are going to muck around in CO for the time being, get some comfy leather boots. Id at least check out Mad Rock- Ive never used them but at that price they bear consideration. It all comes down to fit though- don't look at the price, just buy the best fit.

Although all of these nice fancy tools are great remember that many climbs still considered to be testpieces were first climbed on straight shaft tools and horizontal front points. Plus some of the older ice tools hold their value so you can easily get rid of them for minimal loss after your first season if you feel the need to upgrade that soon. I paid $125 for straight shaft black prophets with leashes 4 years ago and could likely get the same price now. I've since upgraded but have kept the tools so that I can take others out to enjoy ice (another advantage of keeping them around) Your biggest crutch will be mixed climbing with leashes which is very limiting.

Greg,

I've got a pair of Terradactyles (sp?) that are 40 years old you can use for a day..........then go over to a pair of new Nomics and feel the difference. New Cobras are nice and new Nomics are nice but you can climb plenty hard stuff without breaking the wallet. Look for inexpensive closeouts. Tools that are just a couple of years old are not really that different from today's models. Just a couple of years old.

Go with vertical mono points. They are way more versatile and work with alpine as well as hard ice conditions. Monos are more strain on your calf muscles but in really cold conditions fracture the ice less and are much easier to place. Better on mixed stuff also. BTW, waterice is formed from water freezing and forming into ice whereas alpine ice is formed from snow melting down into ice. Alpine ice is less porous and dense than water ice. It has nothing to do with altitude.

I think that something with a spike at the end works better for all-round conditions. The more specialized tools LIKE the new cobra and Nomic just don't function as well in the back country but are great at what they are designed to do. Most tools these days are really good and the ice festival is the best place to try them all. When you go out with friends say, to Mt. Lincoln all you really need are one or two sets of tools anyway so borrow a friend's and check them out.

I think Jacks response was a bit in a reference to mine. I agree totally (besides the fact his experience shadows mine by thousands of routes and many years). If you can afford and pick up last years or the year before models you'll be much more pleased. The modern tools are worth the price, but if its an issue much like it was for me you can ice climb for a pretty low buy in. Thats all I was saying.

Greg, to simplify things out there, there seem to be a few forks in the road for choices on gear. First, bargain hunt or you've got plenty of money. If you can afford 'em, new is very nice. If not, used can work, but you want to know the history on the tools, since at some point, you'll be way up above your tools and want to be totally confident when you're basically only attached by one tool. Second, heavy or light tool. Folks who are particularly strong seem to favor heavier Black Diamond tools (Cobra, Fusion), DMM, or Grivel or whatever. Those of us less strong types seem to favor lighter Petzl or Trango (Capt. Hooks can be great value for the $) or Simond tools. Third, leash or leashless probably depends on what you envision yourself doing. Overhanging, bolt protected, figure-4 or figure-9, gymnastic, fall tons kind of climbing -> definitely leashless. Alpine, vertical or near vertical, using pins at times, long ways from the road -> you may find yourself liking leashes or at least the option for leashes (some tool can by used either way). Functional hammers are really, really nice when you are depending on a pin. BTW, it really, really sucks to be a bunch of pitches up and drop a tool or two (remember B. Blanchard's FA way, way up in Canada and his partner drops his fancy leashless tool...) :( Fourth, crampons depend again on what you envision yourself doing. Mixed, thin, techy ice -> monopoints. If you're heavier, then monos with T-shaped cross-sections are very nice. Alpine, snowy, long-ways back from the road, you may want dual points. Some good ones out there include Charlet Moser M-10s, Grivel Rambos, Trango Harpoons. BTW, fruit boots are pretty dang specialized and cold as poop...but really, really great for stuff M7 & up close to the road.

For me, I've seen a lot of happy folks around here (CO) doing ice and vertical stuff using Petzl Quarks (with leashes - you can get/make detachable straps), Rambo monos - my current combo - though I own Charlet Moser crampons & Black Diamond tools, too. I agree that getting a chance to demo/rent with options to buy like at Bent Gate or Neptune's OR going to a gear demo day is very nice.

I don't know if I should let the cat out of the bag or not, but if you are in the denver/boulder area, check out Boulder Sports Recycler. With the recent demise of Grivel North America came a ton of demo crampons and tools. Pretty much any grivel crampon can be had for 75 bucks each..

DAMN! I didn't buy much Grivel gear but sure as hell hate to see their gear go from the US market. Quality stuff. If you can grab some of their stuff for a decent price its worth considering. Both sets of my crampons are Grivel and both are good products. G12's are great all around and G14's perform well on ice with the mono option.

mountaingear has vipers for $130 each although I think they are an older model. They are not all orange like some I have seen. I got my first pair after trying out the reactors and not liking them.

I'm going to have to agree with Mike that leashes are too much of a pain to deal with. Seriously just man-up and work on your forearm strength, and without those leashes to slow you down you'll be flying up the ice so fast that you'll only stop to put a screw in every 30 ft. I know everyone worries about dropping a tool, but if you were smart you'd carry a spare on your harness.

I didn't know that Grivel was pulled off the US market. Anyone shed some more light on that?

Greg,

Do you have enough informaito to be confused yet? No. Well then, a word about crampons is to purchase a pair where you can make adjustments to use either mono or dual points. That way you can switch out which style you would prefer to climb in and for the day's situation. I still prefer vertical points but Will Gadd does all of his mixed climbing in dual horizontal points so what do I know, eh? One thing to keep in mind is that if you want to keep your crampons sharp you will be filing alot and the metal BD uses on their crampons is less tempered than other brands. I file crampons before each day of climbing and I can't tell you how many Black Diamond crampons I've gone through in ONE season. Too many. With Grivel or Charlet you won't have that problem because the metal is hard-tempered. Also, when purchasing close-out tools keep in mind that you will probably keep the tools for a few seasons. Try and find out how available space picks and parts will be in the future. It sucks to have tools with broken parts that you can't find for your trip up to Canada.

I think Grivel pulled out of the US because Mark Twight became very busy running his Gym Jones business and the sales of Grivel product were such that they are looking for another distributor. They might still be in Canada. Check the Co-op in Calgary.

Regarding leashes, I think you will improvce faster and enjoyh the sport more if you learn without leashes. Your hands will probably stay warmer also, BUT leashes still have their place in this sport and there are days when I'm glad I'm "strapped in".

Later this month there will be ice at Mount Lincoln over by Breckenridge and I always head out there to swing tools at the beginning of the season. You are welcome to join me one day. We can bring a bunch of tools and play around. I've only got about 6 sets of different tools to use.

So much info to take in that's for sure. I used the Charlet Moser Aztars with awesome success and the Quarks were damned awesome. I recently purchased the Taakoons that Mike's speaking of and cannot wait to get out with them. I think leashless has definite advantages. I've used BD and Grivel G-14's, and yes you can still get Grivel, including parts, check out the Grivel site: have front points for the G-14 crampons coming and should be here Thursday. As far as BD, tried that and didn't like them, they just don't seem to be as stable as the Grivel G-14's; look at the secondary points, GRIVEL BIG, bd small. Makes a difference. I also prefer to use mono-points, more versatility inmo.

I was in your position a few years ago and wondered what to do. I thought of it in a few different ways: for one, I didn't have an issue with the money. Lets face it, if your going to climb, it's going to cost you; this endeavor isn't cheap.

I don't know about you, but spending the money can be more motivating and can possibly get you out more-so than renting. Also with renting you have to drive back to where you rented from and dealing with the time line can be a pain, do rental places open in time to get that "alpine start". Also look at all the money you spend on renting, can go towards the purchase of tools/crampons or gas (at least that's becoming more affordable, pphheeww). Waiting for Jan for the festival seems like a lifetime, at least if felt that way for me, so I purchased WAY before then. Good luck in your decision making, and happy climbing.

Juan