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By Fred Wells
Feb 21, 2012

A lot of these negative comments come from false truths and misguided individuals. It also seems the beer bouldering community among other groups is taking some heat in this blog. There is a lot of hatred out there so let me try and clarify some concerns. First off, no one cut down any living trees. A DEAD tree was assisted down (already falling down) to make a bridge accross the creek by certain individuals. This was done after the hurricane when the creek was extemely high and the old dead tree bridge was washed away. Obviously even the out of shape person can rock hop accross the creek now with little rainfall. The NY/NJ trail conference cuts and clears trees on established trails during maintenance so you shouldn't have a problem with a dead tree becoming a bridge. Second, any internet videos that may be out there are now listed as private. Third, beer bouldering respects nature just like the rest of you. There were dead branches and rocks cleared to provide safe landing areas. Again, no living trees were cut down. If you like to camp overnight chances are you have done the same thing when you move rocks to make a fire pit and burn branches to keep warm. Fourth, no one involved with beer bouldering has put a single bolt in any wall, they BOULDER if you can follow the title. Finally, we can point fingers at each other all day long about fell trees, guidebooks and internet postings but whats done is done. We must now work together to get this place opened to the public. Making childish, sarcastic comments about activity that may or may not have taken place is pointless...


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By Erboutitman
From farmingdale ny
Feb 22, 2012

Will they tow my car if i park there now..?


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By Fred Wells
Feb 22, 2012

They can't tow your car unless signs are posted advising of such. Same goes for enforcing non posted laws for people climbing/hiking there. I can see warnings being given but I think law enforcement in the area has more important things to do than hunt down climbers/hikers in the woods.


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By PosiDave
Feb 22, 2012

They may not tow your car. but they escort you off the property and PIPC has confiscated gear from people at other areas who were trespassing. there is a relatively easy place to park and walk to the crag. that makes it lowkey.

Not saying do this... But if you are know that they have fined/taken gear other places. and if this hurts regaining access you kinda kicked yourself in the ass.

SNEAKY SNEAKY....

As for the beer boulders,etc.

I stated that advertising any bad image or possible lawsuit on private property (that isn't owned by someone you know) is not good for regaining access. They already dislike climbing on their property(Legal reasons). So how would mixing that with alcohol help establish they are away from lawsuit territory? I am pretty sure advertising drinking at crags isn't the way to help establish climbing as a upstanding group of society that deserve fair treatment. It just makes use look like a legal case that may cost their business money. (And people love making money).

My issue isn't with bolting/beer drinking/ gun shooting/ crag camping (when done responsibly). My issue is with the otherside and lawsuits in general. But sadly, we have to play nice to gain access/keep access in these areas.


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By Fred Wells
Feb 22, 2012

Until signs are posted they can't confiscate anything. Not to mention anyone enforcing this has to know the property lines as well so good luck to them on that. As far as the videos are concerned, they don't depict anything that hasn't already been going on there for decades. I see more drug paraphernalia from non beer bouldering climbers than anything else up there. At least the beer boulderers pick up after themselves. The posing for pics/vids is with an empty can and is for show. Any beer consumption takes place after climbing and off the property in this particular area. Further, all their vids are private now. The objective now is to stay low key and let the coalition do their part. Again, pointing fingers at specific persons/groups and proclaiming misconduct on this blog doesn't help the situation either. I'm sure the PIPC is paying attention...


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By gmiani
From Rockland Cty, NY
Feb 22, 2012

To the point of parking...
Fred is right that they can't tow/ticket unless it is posted "no parking." This only applies because the parking lot is on public land (owned by the Town of Ramapo) and they have no law against that. Also, remember that hiking is still perfectly legal on all the public property you could access from there (Town of Ramapo, PIPC and most of ConEd).

To the point of climbing...
PosiDave is right...any climbing there right now is NOT going to help any cause to open the area back up.

And Fred...you're unfortunately incorrect (well mostly...only because if ANYONE actually knew where the property lines were, and you weren't on their property, you could make that case but good luck to you on that one). You can't smoke pot and then put your hands up saying, "I didn't know I couldn't do that because there's no sign." If you're on someone's property (public or private...in this case public with stated regulations against climbing) and you're breaking their rules, they can confiscate gear, escort you off the property, give you a fine, and/or get local law enforcement involved...whether its posted or not.

The reality is that the local cops probably don't know and don't care about PIPC regulations. And PIPC is too understaffed and has bigger fish to fry (don't speed through Harriman), to go all the way around to that parking lot to enforce anything. But the truth of the matter is that they could...and again...it doesn't help any access support to do it.

So go hike up their all you want. Check shit out. But go climb somewhere else for the time being, preferably with legal access (or less in the limelight...not that I'm condoning climbing in illegal spots for the lawyers out there).
-gabe


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By Fred Wells
Feb 24, 2012

gmiani, not saying to go climb out there now. I'm just making a point that if signs aren't posted, they would not confiscate gear on a first offense if you were not aware of the local laws. Repeat offenders obviously are a different matter. As far as pot or alcohol goes, obviously you can get busted for that anywhere in a local park. As far as the property lines go, there are different jurisdictions in which to prosecute so that's why I said "good luck with that", referring to law enforcement's willingness to sort that out for a minor trespassing/climbing violation. Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill and scare everyone. Use common sense and everyone will be fine...


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By boulderbum
From NY
Feb 25, 2012

this is a true local talking...but if you guys knew who was riding the atv's up there, you'd know you are pretty much guaranteed to never run into any pigs in those woods EVER. The cops up there want NOTHING to do with any isolated encounters in any desolate areas. I for one could care less what happens...if anything this 'ban' will keep all the limpwristed jerseyites away while the locals continue to crush new contrived eliminates.....anyhoo, not to burst anyones bubble but we're talking about a place that is roughly 95% choss...i mean come on...ive lost count of how many holds ive seen people snap off at that place....theres a reason most of the cairns are chalky...not to mention its got an unbelievable snake population...seriously some big suckers up there

And whats a pad person? Someone that owns a pad and climbs harder than v0?

Guilty!!


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By 4th St
Feb 26, 2012

Let's hope by the end of the coming season, this might just all blow over.

It's a fact that the heroic Palisades Park Police around Harriman, generally, will only leave their cars for doughnuts. They have plenty to do enforcing traffic laws along the Palisades Parkway.


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By jon crefeld
Mar 2, 2012

Fair and Reasonable?  I posted this on the Facebook page as a possible T-shirt design.  I know some of us are hoping this blows over ... I believe someone in one of our climbing coalition meetings called it 'sticking your head in the sand.'  So - this is my contribution as doing something about the hornet's nest without kicking it.
Fair and Reasonable? I posted this on the Facebook page as a possible T-shirt design. I know some of us are hoping this blows over ... I believe someone in one of our climbing coalition meetings called it 'sticking your head in the sand.' So - this is my contribution as doing something about the hornet's nest without kicking it.


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By Erboutitman
From farmingdale ny
Mar 3, 2012

this really would blow over if you'd just let it go


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By jon crefeld
Mar 3, 2012

I hope so, I really hope so.


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By boulderbum
From NY
Mar 24, 2012

My condolences to whoever was lobbying for shit with the town....access was about as wide-open and perfect as it could get.....remind me again why the area,was even brought to the towns attention? What were you guys trying to do? The trails are fine, huge parking area....


Anyone respecting the ban needs a reality check: its a bombed out choss-hole that nobody cares about, besides the jerseyites that wrote the guide. People shoot guns and bows back there regularly, mtn kids huff paint in some of shadier corridors, atv use can also be pretty reckless back there, ive seen locals do some dangerous shit.

Its pretty illegal for the locals to use the swimming hole too...one of you white knights
should go tell them to get outta the water, as its on the same street and very close to the crag....access could be jeopardized even further!!!!! OH NOES!!!!!!!!!1!!!


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By Erboutitman
From farmingdale ny
Mar 24, 2012

fucking jerseyites and fucking choss holes. beer bouldering for life man!


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By boulderbum
From NY
Mar 26, 2012

This post violated Rule #1. It has been removed by Mountain Project.


By jon crefeld
Mar 26, 2012

Nice trolling boulderbum. I suppose after you finish railing on 'the bombed out choss pile', what else is there to do but go out on chalk patrol, gnashing your teeth like a modern day Grendel. What if I were to say that discussions with the PIPC where making progress?


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By Erboutitman
From farmingdale ny
Mar 27, 2012

I'd still say that your the problem and you should take up power walking


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By jon crefeld
Mar 27, 2012

So - I'm looking for suggestions. If you were to look into your crystal ball and say - 'It would be cool if they ran the Powerlinez like __________.' What would you see? Peterskill, Ragged Mountain? Obviously, no one wants to pay, no one wants regulation --- but how do you make that work?


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By rogerbenton
Mar 27, 2012
Whoever this guy is, he's just plain irresponsible.

sounds like progress!

i don't know enough about how an area should be run and all the issues that must be considered to give a valid opinion.

what i would personally like to see is that it remains a free area, there should be a volunteer group improving access trails and cleaning loose rock on routes, and there should be just enough posted signage to let people know that they are on a well known public piece of parkish land so they don't feel safe littering, throwing up graffiti, etc.


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By boulderbum
From NY
Mar 27, 2012

This post violated Rule #1. It has been removed by Mountain Project.


By Erboutitman
From farmingdale ny
Mar 28, 2012

Yeah idk I really like downhill skipping.

that and videos like this
www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OxxwX2pAE20#!


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By T.L. Kushner
Mar 28, 2012

roger benton summed up exactly how i feel. i've done my fair share of climbing but i know absolutely nothing about land management or how a climbing area should be run. ESPECIALLY not one so close to new york city that will doubtlessly see a lot of traffic. as long as there are people speaking not only on behalf of the climbing community, but also to act as advocates for the proper use of the land and see that it doesn't trashed, clear cut, chalked up, beer bouldered, or anything else messed up that has happened to the place in the past, then i support it. I'll do whatever i can to get this place opened up again because it still is my favorite local crag and driving past the place and knowing that it's shut down really upsets me and gets under my skin.

that said, jon, how are negotiations going with PIP? anything we/i can do to lend a hand? letters to write, things like that?


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By jon crefeld
Mar 28, 2012

T.L. And to think you started this thread. I don't think I'd be stepping out of line to say that there has been progress in negotiating with PIPC. A friend of mine suggested that owning land with so many cliffs is risky for land managers, and a good way for them to mitigate that risk is to let climbers get involved. That's the writing I see on the wall.

Ragged Mountain over in Connecticut: raggedmtn.org, is an example where climbers set up a non-profit, purchase the land, and even have their own liability insurance. As far as I know, you don't sign in, you just climb.

That's pretty much a utopia that's taken a lot of people working together. I agree with Roger Benton, we need the chance to mark our trails, and post signs explaining our deal. As talks with the PIPC get more specific (and it is moving that way), we've all got to think ahead enough to move the mob of us with respect and intelligence.

But the PIPC is going to have to lift it's prohibition and give us some rein ... And as it looks to be headed in that direction, but it's probably too early to say exactly what rules we can make for ourselves. I realize it's burning everybody to not go there on these gorgeous spring days, but I don't think it's going to be too long and if we want the coach to put us in, we've got to play on the team.


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By Erboutitman
From farmingdale ny
Mar 29, 2012

Why do you feel the need to make it open though if nobody minds people there while its closed?


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By jon crefeld
Mar 29, 2012

E-man. You are a genius! Since, we've said we wouldn't climb at the Powerlinez, they're not so worried about enforcing regs and not patrolling. So you can climb unhassled. But, what happens when we all want to climb at the Powerlinez. They start to patrol, and uh oh! One man's genius is group of mens' ...

Group genius, and I do think climbers are a pretty smart bunch, means everyone agrees on some guidelines and works together. And - maybe it's like climbing - the more genius those guidelines - the more free and exhilarating. (I know I sound like a tool.)

So - let's hypothetically say we are going to meet with the PIPC. Some of you have already started approaching me, saying you'd like your name to count. Thanks. Basically, we need guidelines and people who will stand by them. Send me your names and voice your thoughts.

We do have issues. A) Parking - as TL said, there will be a lot of people. B) Chalk. (Right Boulderbum? - Btw, what happened to all your posts??) C) Trails continue to multiply. D) Almost every overhanging boulder problem has been 1) An Indian shelter 2) A looted Indian shelter. E) The area is some of the best habitat for timber rattlers in NY. They live in the talus fields.

That's probably enough for now. If you've got some experience with any of these issues (anybody know Randy Steckerd rattlesnake expert?), NY/NJ Trail Conf. people etc, or your willing to help be part of the group solution, speak up! It's much appreciated. Jon


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