Route Guide - iPhone / Android - Partners - Forum - Photos - Deals - What's New - School of Rock
Login with Facebook
 ADVANCED
Climbing and Martial Arts
View Latest Posts in This Forum or All Forums
   Page 2 of 2.  <<First   <Prev   1  2
Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
 
By berl
From Oregon
Jan 11, 2013

a lot of bjj is practiced as a sport, not martial activity or a series of lessons on self-defense or ass-beating. in some schools, this means that people are focused on training, getting better and staying healthy and (in my experience) fewer injuries due to newbies trying to be tough. as others have said, it's important to find an activity and school that matches your interests. also, some martial arts gyms/clubs are pretty expensive. good luck.


FLAG
By AST
Feb 19, 2013

Slightly old thread that I just came across.

I will also cast my vote for BJJ. In 2003 I had to quit climbing due to tendonitis. I took up BJJ while I waited for my injuries to heal. I got so into it, I forgot all about climbing for many years.

I practiced BJJ for about 7 years, achieving the rank of high purple belt (which is like being a 5.12+ onsight climber). I was an instructor for about 4 of those years.

It's a great pastime, which has a lot in common with climbing. Both require great balance, conditioning and spatial awareness. There's also a lot of characters involved in both, and both even have some moves with the same names (knee bar, heel hook, arm bar).

I'm back into climbing again, but am considering starting BJJ again also. The problem is that both of them are so physically demanding, only the very young could handle it. It would also be tough to be any better than mediocre at either one if doing both. You really need to be dedicated to one or the other.


FLAG
By Carl Sherven
Feb 19, 2013

I'll put in another vote for BJJ. You'll never get into better shape than grappling shape. Also, the BJJ/mma/grappling community is great, dare I say better than the climbing community. Most people I met during 8 years of training/competing were incredibly positive, hard working, and encouraging. If you're traveling and a school is in the area, stop in and people will be happy to work out with you.

Also, someone implied that grappling doesn't do much for your flexibility. That's simply wrong. Flexibility is a huge asset on the ground, and a lot of work goes into increasing flexibility, not only to help you avoid injury, but it also opens up opportunities.

Finally, fights almost always end on the ground. If you're interested in self-defense at all you need to understand how to grapple. With you being in CO people are wearing heavy clothing most of the year, with nice solid collars, lapels, and sleeves, which are all excellent tools for choking if you know how to use them. Chokes are great because no matter how drunk, psycho, hopped up on pain pills, whatever someone is, getting a choke locked in will end it. And despite what the movies will have you believe, it only takes a few seconds to put someone completely under with a proper choke, and they won't make a sound during those few seconds.


FLAG
By reboot
From Westminster, CO
Feb 20, 2013

Carl Sherven wrote:
Finally, fights almost always end on the ground.

Well yes, hopefully it's the other guy already knocked/passed out or otherwise disabled. I know BJJ has been preaching this line for years, but really, it should be avoided unless you know the surrounding really well (do you really want to be on the ground when the drunk guy's buddy shows up?) But then again, why wouldn't you be able to avoid a fight in a familiar surrounding?
Carl Sherven wrote:
If you're interested in self-defense at all you need to understand how to grapple.

Since grappling also include escape, I'll give you that. But if you are interested in self-defense, you also need to learn defending against strikes. I know in the earlier days of MMA, BJJ guys exposed many martial artists of their unfamiliarity of the ground game, but it's also easy to see it isn't the end-all form: as competitors became better at defending against take-downs/submissions, MMA fights are increasingly ending in knock-outs or submissions resulting from good strikes.


FLAG
By Carl Sherven
Feb 20, 2013

reboot wrote:
see reboot's comment above


If you really want to know what I think, the best martial arts related thing for people to study is MMA. It gives you strikes, clinch, takedowns, ground technique, and submissions. It also teaches you how to use the environment to your advantage if there is an actual cage where you train.

However, from what the OP said, I doubt this is someone that will say "Great idea, I'm gonna go train mma at XYZ Fight Academy." Many people I knew started off doing Judo, or BJJ, or kickboxing at a school that had MMA and slowly got into it. Now, if someone goes in just for the bjj classes or judo classes for a year or two, and get to know some of the people, realizes that they're really positive and encouraging, then it becomes an easier sell for the people they're training with to convince them to take that step.

As far as "what happens when drunk guy's buddy shows up?" Yeah, avoiding bad situations is a good idea, and I'm certainly not saying "bjj is great cuz you can get in bar fights and choke people the fuck out." The fact is that if you get attacked by several people it's just not good. All I can say about that is that being aware of your surroundings and not getting into situations like that, and not appearing to be an easy target, is the first and best line of defense.

Cool Story Bro time: I remember teaching a class where we were working on sinking in rear naked chokes from the back. One of the fairly new students asked me why we didn't spend much time practicing escapes for those when we spend so much time on other escapes. My answer was something like "So, you're opponent turned you, then took your back, then managed to sink both hooks in, then broke down your quarter position and got you flat on your stomach face down, then got a rear naked choke sunk in, and now you've got a few seconds until you tap or pass out? Your training time would have been better spent avoiding the mistakes that enabled all those other bad things in the first place." Point being, don't let yourself get in bad situations in the first place so you won't have to figure a way out.

Anyway, Shane, try a couple things out and just make sure you feel good about the instructors and people you're training with.


FLAG
By Marc H
From Lafayette, CO
Feb 20, 2013
The Cathedral Spires in RMNP, left to right: Stiletto, Sharkstooth, Forbidden Tower, Petit Grepon, The Saber, The Foil, The Moon & The Jackknife.

Shane Zentner wrote:
Having become slightly bored with climbing (I'm scared to even admit this)


I'm pretty much in the same boat. I have a hard time giving a shit about climbing after so many years.

I recently connected with my GF's good friend that practices Judo at the Denver Buddhist Temple. They get together Mon & Thurs 6:30 - 8pm. It's only $30/month to join. I used to wrestle 13-18 yo, but haven't practiced in years. This Thurs will be my first time in 16 years. I hope I don't get my ass kicked too hard.

It might be something worth looking into depending on where in CO you are.

Website:
www.dbtjudo.com/DBTJ/Welcome.html

I'm sure a lot of climbers can relate to this quote:

Judo teaches us to look for the best possible course of action, whatever the individual circumstances, and helps us to understand that worry is a waste of energy.

-Jigoro Kano,
Founder of Judo


FLAG
By AST
Feb 20, 2013

reboot wrote:
Well yes, hopefully it's the other guy already knocked/passed out or otherwise disabled. I know BJJ has been preaching this line for years, but really, it should be avoided unless you know the surrounding really well (do you really want to be on the ground when the drunk guy's buddy shows up?) But then again, why wouldn't you be able to avoid a fight in a familiar surrounding? Since grappling also include escape, I'll give you that. But if you are interested in self-defense, you also need to learn defending against strikes. I know in the earlier days of MMA, BJJ guys exposed many martial artists of their unfamiliarity of the ground game, but it's also easy to see it isn't the end-all form: as competitors became better at defending against take-downs/submissions, MMA fights are increasingly ending in knock-outs or submissions resulting from good strikes.


When I started BJJ it was at a brand new school. The only other people there were the instructor and a couple of his friends who had both been training for many years. The first 6 months I was the low man on the totem pole and spent 90% of my time getting my ass kicked BAD. I could only mount an offense if they let me. I would go home aching from head to toe having been (for lack of a better term) utterly RAPED for hours on end.

Eventually, new students joined and it was absolutely shocking how easy it was to completely dominate almost all of them, with only the very biggest and strongest, or guys who had wrestled for years in school able to put up some decent resistance. Anyone who was even close to my size, who were completely new to grappling would totally be my bitch. I could do pretty much anything I wanted to them.

The point being, grappling and ground fighting is not a natural skill and many things are completely foreign and counter-intuitive. Unlike stand up fighting, where even a completely untrained person has some understanding of how to throw a punch, and where being much bigger and stronger is a much more distinct advantage.

It really is a fascinating hobby.


FLAG
By AST
Feb 20, 2013

Carl:

Where did you study / train?


FLAG
By Carl Sherven
Feb 20, 2013

Adam - BJJ wrote:
Carl: Where did you study / train?


Short Answer: Mostly Monkey Bar and Henderson Self Defense Center

Long Answer: sent you a private message. Had it here, but realized it was more info than I like to put online about myself.

Cheers.


FLAG
By Shane Zentner
From Colorado
Jul 10, 2013
The Sun with Pikes Peak in the distance.  <br />South Platte valley, Fall 2010

And the winner is Muay Thai. I started training at the end of February and love it. Mentally and physically strenuous with lots of drills, bag work, conditioning, and sparring. No belts, forms, or katas, just alot of hard work.


FLAG
By The Phoenix
Jul 10, 2013
The Phoenix

Jiu Jitsu.

Lots of climbing friends have taken this and say it's invaluable to their climbing.


FLAG
By Bryan Hall
From Bend, Oregon
Jul 10, 2013

M Sprague wrote:
Probably the most important is to find a good instructor.


I'll second this. There are a lot of great forms of martial arts and they will all build strength, focus, awareness, concentration. MOST important is a good teacher and dojo that you feel good at.

Here's my rundown on training I've had with the pros and cons for each:

Military Styles: Pros - Great training if you are worried about actually having an altercation. Great for focus. Cons - Very focused on violently ending the interaction quickly, not much spiritual growth.

BJJ: Pros - Awesome for awareness and concentration and great for learning to defend yourself without having to hurt the other person. Cons - Learning with noobs practicing submissions on your joints can result in nasty injuries.

Kenpo: Pros - A great stand up striking form of martial arts that is great for strength and concentration. Cons - Any striking art can result in hand damage so make sure your form is good.

Capoeira: Pros - Tons of fun and an awesome workout. Great cultural teachings as well. Cons - Less applicable if you are truly wanting to develop self defense.

Tai Chi: Pros - Great for focus and concentration. I've heard the push hands training is amazing as well. Cons - Very slow paced from the teachers I've had. You would need to be disciplined and comfortable with a "yoga like" martial arts experience.

Yoga: I know this isn't a martial art but it is an awesome form of cross training that you might want to consider. Pros - Builds everything you are looking for and is amazing for injury prevention and recovery (try to find certified Anusara instructors). Cons - Yoga is slow, no self defense training, has too many teachers available and can result in injury if you are competitive and are learning from a teacher who pushes you into specific shapes instead of ideal alignment.

All that being said I am currently not doing any of these activities and am 100% focused on my climbing again. If I were to return to this stuff I would be open to doing any of them other than military type trainings and BJJ.


FLAG
By Richard M. Wright
From Lakewood, CO
Jul 10, 2013

Shane, have you considered Shotokan Karate? It would seem to fulfill most of your objectives. The International Shotokan Karate Federation (ISKF) has a strong presence in Colorado. Mark Tarrant is a Shichidan within the ISKF and could be highly informative.


FLAG
By doug rouse
From Denver, CO.
Jul 10, 2013

I would toss in another vote for Aikido. Unlike other martial arts, there is little risk of injury..ie. painful arm bars, tweaked shoulders, damaged knuckles etc. Instead, it offers a Ton of Mind-Body coordination. The benefit of which allows a sense of body-awareness..making your need for arm strentgth less necessary. Be able to balance over your "one-point", and less fatigued after a long day.


FLAG
By doug rouse
From Denver, CO.
Jul 10, 2013

Ps: Richard..Jeff Jones, who is sitting next to me at the moment says HI..How ya doing?


FLAG
By JerryN
Jul 10, 2013

Tae Kwon Do is another art to consider. I studied it for several years. I studied under two different Korean masters and each had his strengths. One was great at the philosophy and could address several of the items you are looking for. After several years, I studied under the second. He was a coach on the 2000 U.S. Olympic team. He was able to improve my speed significantly. He told me, "you kick like an American but I can fix", and he did.

So, like others have said, it is really important to find the correct instructor. My first Tae Kwon Do master taught me lots of things that improved my climbing skills and I still employ those things.

Although you did not specifically mention self defense, Tae Kwon Do is great for that. I frequently had to spar against multiple opponents and learned how to defend against such attacks. There is more to it than just knowing how and where to kick someone that is for sure.


FLAG
By Richard M. Wright
From Lakewood, CO
Jul 10, 2013

Doug, Hi to Jeff. How did this connection come about?


FLAG
By Ari Kantola
From Raleigh, NC
Jul 10, 2013

Just curious.....has anyone studied Kyusho-Jitsu: the Dillman method? George Dillman's pressure point system? His books are highly recommended.


FLAG
By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Jul 10, 2013
tanuki

Ari Kantola wrote:
Just curious.....has anyone studied Kyusho-Jitsu: the Dillman method? George Dillman's pressure point system? His books are highly recommended.


Ari, here is all you need to know about Dillman:

from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Dillman

"In September 2005, National Geographic Channel's Is It Real? program (episode 20) asked for a demonstration of his "Knockout" Chi (a no-touch knockout technique), during which Kyusho-jitsu and Small Circle JuJitsu instructor Leon Jay was unable to knock-out Luigi Garlaschelli, an Italian skeptical investigator from CICAP. Dillman's explanation of the failure was as follows:

“The skeptic was a totally non-believer. Plus – I don't know if I should say that on film – but if the guy had his tongue in the wrong position in the mouth, that can also nullify it [Qi power]. You can nullify it – you can nullify a lot of things. In fact, you can nullify it if you raise those two big toes! If I say I'm going to knock you out, and you raise one toe, and push one toe down....I can't knock you out. And then, if I go to try again, you reverse it. If you keep doing this, I won't knock you out.[10][11]"

IMHO there is no magic in the martial arts and no short cuts. Hard training, hitting and getting hit, working with live and uncooperative opponents, and dedication is how you become proficient.


FLAG
By Ari Kantola
From Raleigh, NC
Jul 10, 2013

NC. I apreciate the input. I'm suprised no one yet has mentioned training informally. Miyamoto Musashi's "the Book of Five Rings"? If you want to understand open hand combat, learn a stringed instrument. Years of training, I agree. Oh, and I could care less about "Qi", and magical martial arts, but I do think pressure points are used in almost all martial arts.


FLAG
By John Husky
Jul 11, 2013

I have studied karate, hapkido and bjj. I am not an expert. The things you need to watch out for are the attitudes. There are people, novice and expert, who are there to learn to win fights and hurt people. Stay away.

There are many crap schools that teach karate like kata and pretend that they are teaching a complete fighting system. There is no magic. If you want to be a good fighter, get in lots of fights. There are no pressure points, it is BS. The average thug on the street will beat down the average martial artist.

Martial arts can be great, but you need to have the right mindset and not take the snake oil routine. Grappling and boxing will offer the best work outs, in terms of cardio.


FLAG


Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
Page 2 of 2.  <<First   <Prev   1  2