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Climber decked at momentum?
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By Tom Hore
Apr 17, 2014

paintrain wrote:
(ref. Paul Harvey circa 1994 - equipment failure). PT


I miss Paul Harvey even more though.... sigh....


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By Paul Wilhelmsen
From sandy, ut
Apr 17, 2014
Just me with the waterfront behind me. Ice the size of golfballs kept falling down the Waterfront like clockwork while we climbed next to it. Super nice day <br />

If there were a bunch if chicks at the gym climbing shirtless I promise you there would be more belay accidents (from distraction) a risk I'm totally willing to accept :)

All jokes aside, thanks for the info guys. I was curious as to what happened. I guess, like always we need to keep our eyes peeled for potential accidents and remember to check our partners.
Again, best wishes to the injured climber


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By CareBear
From SLC, UT
Apr 17, 2014

paintrain wrote:
Rockreation did not allow gri gris, but allowed shirtless climbing. They rarely had an accident (ref. Paul Harvey circa 1994 - equipment failure). The Momentum accident did not involve a gri gri, but due to gym requirements a covered torso at a minimum. Ergo, shirtless climbing prevents climbing accidents. Problem solved. PT



Flawless logic, this must also be why I have never heard of a belaying accident at The Front in SLC.


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By Brian in SLC
Apr 17, 2014
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch

Tom Hore wrote:
I miss Paul Harvey even more though.... sigh....


I've seen him recently. Looked sweet decked out in his motorcicle outfit.

Its interesting, though...Rockreation was sometimes really lax about their belay test and monitoring of lead climbers. Very rare there was an accident. I think I recall a broken ankle from a lead fall there, and maybe one that was a suspected back injury but that's over 20 years worth. I've seen dislocated shoulders (ugh) and folks get hurt bouldering, and, seen plenty close calls in the lead area but I've never seen an injury there. Maybe some of the regulars monitored the closed in lead area better when they saw an unsafe situaton? Hard to not, as, with 4 or 5 ropes in play, was easy to bump into folks.

Momentum is/has been hard corp about their belay test and monitoring, to the point of being a touch excessive about it, and, sometimes fairly unpleasant (condescending and misogynistic in fact).

I've never heard of a gym that has more folks fall to the floor than Momentum. Just makes me wonder, why? And, what could they, and, frankly "we" do better in preventing accidents? We're all one stout lawsuit away from not having a gym to climb in...right?

We all double and triple check our tie ins now (especially after a Momentum accident!). Harness doubled back. Belay device rigged properly.

Thoughts?


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By OldManRiver
From Cottonwood Heights, UT
Apr 17, 2014
Red Rock, Cannibal crag

Brian in SLC wrote:
Just makes me wonder, why? And, what could they, and, frankly "we" do better in preventing accidents? We're all one stout lawsuit away from not having a gym to climb in...right? We all double and triple check our tie ins now (especially after a Momentum accident!). Harness doubled back. Belay device rigged properly. Thoughts?


My first thought was what are the stats on gyms with similar numbers of visitors? I could be off here but scale-wise it seems MM/MM2 are on a different level than Rockreation/Front/Quarry when it comes to the volume of knots tied/belays per day. They're also in the limelight constantly, maybe other incidents don't get the same publicity?

Stopped by on the member tour day and Jeff P. was nice enough to give a full tour for me and the gf - damn impressive. The guy and his staff have done a lot for the local community, really hope no suits come of this.


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By Mahcire
Apr 17, 2014

My two cents? Well, maybe it's just the fact that gyms make climbing really accessible (it's where I started out) and in our current social environment we tend to forget/overlook that fact that shit needs to be taken seriously and focus on the cosmetics of life. Are we having enough fun, are we fitting in with the crowd, do my shoes make me look like I know what I'm doing? I don't know the belayer and I'm not perfect, we all make mistakes. Just saying that sometimes we get distracted and lose focus on the hazards of life and that's when accidents take on the personality of a Jack in the Box.


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By Finn the Human
From The Land of Ooo
Apr 17, 2014
Mathematical!

Former Rockreation employee here.


Brian in SLC wrote:
Maybe some of the regulars monitored the closed in lead area better when they saw an unsafe situaton? Hard to not, as, with 4 or 5 ropes in play, was easy to bump into folks.


We did have some members who would keep an eye on things a bit.

In addition, we only ever had 5 folks leading at a time, and the front desk was 20 from where people were climbing. If someone was being sketch you'd better believe I'd give them a talking to. On rare occasions, I've even told people they need to stop leading, because they were being unsafe.

As far as belay tests go, we were less strict about which belay technique you used, but (I at least) put a greater emphasis on the fundamentals. I didn't care so much if you held the rope overhand or underhand, as long as you could give a soft catch, you could gauge slack appropriately, could feed slack efficiently, etc...

I don't know much about Momentum's lead cert process (although they did just change me $5 to re-cert after they lost my original lead cert info from 5 years ago... grr...) but it seems like they just have a checklist they want to get through, more than anything else.


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By lewisslc
From Salt Lake City, Ut
Apr 17, 2014

Momentum certainly seems like they are pretty strict when giving belay tests (i have been next to multiple people who have failed for seemingly ridiculous reasons), but on the other hand when i took my test, i bullshitted with the guy the whole time about certain lines outside... maybe because i seemed to know what i was doing more than others? I don't know... Do you all think it matters, that in some cases, the employees giving the test have never (or are new to climbing) climbed outside?


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By Wic
From SLC, UT
Apr 29, 2014
Brown Duck Basin, Uinta Mountains, Utah

Greg D wrote:
If an ATC falls in the woods, and nobody with a gri gri is around to hear it, is the atc still responsible for user error. Feel free to swap atc and gri gri. The answer is the same.


Greg, that is the funniest thing I've heard all day! I've only belayed with a grigri a couple of times. I definitely prefer the ATC myself, but probably just because that was what I was taught on. I saw a video the other day of a guy climbing solo (not free solo mind you) on a grigri. I thought that was cool because it looked pretty easy to self-belay while climbing. Maybe I'll try that out on a day that I can't find a climbing partner.


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By Allyson Dopp
Apr 29, 2014

Hi y'all. I am actually the person who fell opening night. It was 100% belayer error. She was using an ATC. I'm still not sure how it happened. She said that someone asked her a question, so she turned to talk to them and the next thing she knew I was on the floor. She didn't burn her hand and there was no resistance on the rope at all. So I'm not really sure if she let go of the rope... Anyway, I'm doing well. Just a sprained ankle and a really sore back. And a nice hospital bill on the way! I actually went climbing at momentum twice this past weekend. Easing back into it. Thanks for the concern!


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By BobGray
From Salt Lake City, Utah
Apr 29, 2014
My Hero

Thank goodness you're ok! It made me sick to my stomach when I saw you hit.


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By Paul Wilhelmsen
From sandy, ut
Apr 29, 2014
Just me with the waterfront behind me. Ice the size of golfballs kept falling down the Waterfront like clockwork while we climbed next to it. Super nice day <br />

Allyson, So glad to hear you're ok. From the stories I heard, I had worried you were going to be a lot more injured, I'm stoked I was wrong.
Can't imagine how someone could unknowingly completely let go of the rope tho...

Climb safe, maybe someday we'll bump into each other there.


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By Billcoe
Apr 29, 2014

Allyson Dopp wrote:
Hi y'all. I am actually the person who fell opening night. It was 100% belayer error. She was using an ATC. I'm still not sure how it happened. She said that someone asked her a question, so she turned to talk to them and the next thing she knew I was on the floor. She didn't burn her hand and there was no resistance on the rope at all. So I'm not really sure if she let go of the rope... Anyway, I'm doing well. Just a sprained ankle and a really sore back. And a nice hospital bill on the way! I actually went climbing at momentum twice this past weekend. Easing back into it. Thanks for the concern!




Glad you're going to be fine. I'm curious how long (how many years) has your belayer been climbing?


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By Jon Lachelt
From Fort Collins, CO
Apr 29, 2014

Thanks Allyson, for giving the real story. I'm so glad to hear you are doing well.


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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Apr 29, 2014
modern man

this thread reminds me off people trying to text and drive---> major distraction, should be fine 99 out of a 100 times until someone gets hurt bad, then its on you


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By Allyson Dopp
Apr 29, 2014

I think she has been climbing for three or four years. I have been climbing with her for about a year now.


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By rockcarl
From Orange County, CA
Apr 29, 2014
Prusiking a fixed line at Rockreation during a self-rescue workshop

I learned to lead at Rockreation in Costa Mesa. In my first real lead fall, my ankle hit a ledge and twisted pretty badly, took me out of exercise for around one week. The belayer was even newer than I was, and despite being actively coached by a staff member, he freaked a little when he got pulled up, released his brake hand for a second, and dropped me farther than I expected. I, as an inexperienced climber, got into a bad position when I fell farther than I was ready for and hit my ankle.

That was about a year ago. That partner is now the person I am most comfortable climbing with because we worked through that mistake together, and made sure that neither of us would make it again. Now, sport climbing outdoors, I know I can trust the guy to make the right judgment when I fall.


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By Wic
From SLC, UT
Apr 30, 2014
Brown Duck Basin, Uinta Mountains, Utah

Congrats on the speedy recovery Allyson! It sounds like you have a good attitude about the accident. Everybody makes mistakes, and unfortunately you were hurt because of it. Not that anybody cares what my opinion is, but if it was me, I would forgive my belayer and have a respectful conversation about what went wrong and work through it together. I'm sure your belayer feels terrible. Best of luck to you in your future climbing!


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By drewford
From Wasatch Back, UT
May 5, 2014
Base of Stiffler's Mom

Glad you're recovering Allyson. I was there when you fell and was wondering what the circumstances were. Hope the rest of your season stays safe.


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By USBRIT
From Cumbria.UK
May 5, 2014
desert

Tom Hore wrote:
Man do I miss shirtless climbing. sigh.....

Tom... Folk do not want to see your hairy back .. Cheers from UK


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By David Sahalie
From on the road again
May 5, 2014

Good thing the belayer wasn't using a gri gri. Those fangled devices are death machines.

I trust the power of my right hand, the attention of my belayer, and a good ol BD 'Merican made ATC so much more than something 'designed' by the French.


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By Allen Sanderson
From Oootah
May 5, 2014

David Sahalie wrote:
Good thing the belayer wasn't using a gri gri. Those fangled devices are death machines. I trust the power of my right hand, the attention of my belayer, and a good ol BD 'Merican made ATC so much more than something 'designed' by the French.


The ATC is just a variation of the stitch plate designed by da Germans.


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By engineer1984
From Ogden, UT
May 6, 2014

ATC's are a great pre-cam device invention to continue using for this reason. See, when the belayer dropped her climber, she is able to really reflect on her poor form, figure out what went wrong, feel really bad for the injured climber, and have that awkward conversation about medical bills afterward.

If she was using the relatively new cam locking device, it just would have been an awkward experience where the climber was left hanging on a taut rope while the belayer realized she didn't have her belay hand on the rope.


Honestly, I've been trying to find people to climb with that still use hemp ropes, belay from the hip, don't wear helmets and make harnesses out of webbing. Can't find any though... Is that too pre-cam locking belay device technology or something? What, does no one know how to really belay anymore? What a bunch of crap. I'm going to go free solo some stuff in some 70's era climbing boots, knee high cotton socks, and short shorts.

Cheers,


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By Woodchuck ATC
May 6, 2014
Rock Wars, RRG, 2008

Tom Hore wrote:
Man do I miss shirtless climbing. sigh.....


I agree, there just aren't enough shirtless female climbers at the gym these days....such a disappointment to gym membership......it's so hot in some gyms with no air circulation,,,I say 'why not' ?


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By Tom Hore
May 6, 2014

USBRIT wrote:
Tom... Folk do not want to see your hairy back .. Cheers from UK

Sigh....... I miss you Paul and your shirtless climbing.


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