Click Up, Alpine Up

There's been a lot of talk about megajul and smarts lately. I was wondering if anyone has tried out the click up or alpine up, and what their thoughts were. I know they work on the same principles, and can be finicky about which carabiner is used with it.

Ultimately, I'm just starting to lead belay but do to deformation in my right hand, it's much easier to belay left handed. This can be achieved with my gri-gri2, but it can be cumbersome. The megajul, smart, and click up are all equally ambidextrous, so I just want to see which one is built the best for that assisted braking principle. Thanks.

I've been using the Alpine Up for years now with 8.5mm half ropes. I believe it is the best of the devices for belaying with half ropes, but the situation is different for a single ropes, since they do not require the more complicated feeding processes associated with half-rope technique.

The sight of the Alpine Up is apparently enough to frighten some people away, who proclaim it overly complicated by looking at pictures of it. In reality, it threads and handles like an ATC, which is precisely true of the Smart or the Juls.

The Alpine Up loses the weight contest big-time; it is about as heavy and as bulky as a Gri-Gri.

All of these devices can accidentally lock up while pumping slack to the leader. As far as I can tell, each one is easy and quick to release with the appropriate learned technique.

The Smart and, since it's release mechanism works the same way, probably the Juls, can be handled in such a way that they may not grab, the problem occurring when the device is levered away from the body via the thumb catch and a fall happens with the device still levered away. The combination of events is unlikely but not impossible and has happened in the field with the Smart. Nothing analogous is possible with the Ups, because no special actions are needed to guarantee smooth feeding.

The Alpine Up finesses the dependence of performance on the carabiner by making you buy a carabiner suited to the device.

Rappelling seems to be a mixed bag with all these devices. I find the Alpine Up works well with my 8.5's, but doubt you could use two strands much thicker than that without having feeding problems when there is a lot of rope weight. There is a work-around, but it twists my ropes terribly and so I never use it. Occasionally, on long free-hanging rappels, I have to feed the ropes into the device for twenty or thirty feet. As with the other devices, there is a non-locking option that might be preferable for rappelling. On the other hand, with 8.5's, the Alpine Up locks up very satisfactorily if you release the brake hand.

I don't use the guide upper belay method enough to make a serious judgement about the Alpine Up in that configuration. It seems OK when I use it that way, but I don't have much to compare it to. From what I've heard, the Smart is better at this. There's a new crop of devices on the horizon from DMM and CT that may be far better at this application.

Tests by Jim Titt suggest that the confidence one gets in the locking of these devices at relatively low fall loads may be misplaced, and their behavior under very high loads may be considerably worse than an ATC XP. How much of an issue this is depends on your grip strength; the assisted braking devices (there doesn't seem to be a good name) do not act like force multipliers of grip strength the way an ATC XP does, and there is a leveling off of braking force no matter how hard one grips---in some sense a strong grip is wasted. One certainly ought not to be lulled into any kind of complacency about the device doing all the work for you in a high fall-factor situation.

Although there seem to be people who are seriously offended if anyone suggests their device of choice isn't perfect, the fact is that the entire genre is still a work in progress. At the end of the day it is mostly going to come down to personal preference. Ideally, you should go to a shop that has all these devices and play with them in the store to at least get a sense of which ones you might like best.

Have you already tried this?

www.petzl.com/en/Sport/VIDEO---Specific-left-handed-technique?ProductName=GRIGRI-2&l=US

I own all 3 and prefer the alpine up.

Rgold's comments reflect how I think about the trade offs.

I've been using the AlpineUp as my primary belay device for about a year now, and I love the thing. Mine came with a carabiner specifically designed for it.

Pros:
It belays half ropes like a dream.

It lead belays single ropes up to ~9.8mm very nicely, and has the best assisted-braking action of any device I've used. It feeds just like an ATC, but it locks up immediately when your climber falls. IMO it lead belays single ropes far superior to the GriGri2. Several of my ropes that are unusable in the GriGri due to stiffness/fuzziness are just fine for lead belaying with the AlpineUp.

The auto-locking rappel mode is sweet. I much prefer it to using a friction hitch for a backed up rappel. I've read complaints about it being hard to feed but it hasn't bothered me so far.

Unlike many of the assisted-braking devices, to rapid feed rope, you don't have to effectively disable the device's braking mechanism(Think squeezing the cam on a GriGri). I honestly can't think of how you could drop someone with the AlpineUp. I've tested it numerous times with different ropes and it has always locked off immediately with the brake unattended(Don't do this. Obviously.)

Cons:
There's definitely a bit of learning curve to using it fluidly, but once you figure it out, it is very easy to use.

It sucks for lead belaying with really fat stiff fuzzy ropes. It's still better than my GriGri2 on fat old fuzzy ropes but still not great once you reach the too fat threshold. My extremely fuzzy and stiff Mammut Tusk 9.8 is still usable, but any fatter would start get annoying pretty quick.

The top-belay/guide mode is ok. Neither terrible, nor great.

It's about the weight and size of a GriGri2, but I am willing to put up with a few extra grams in order to have the added safety margin of the assisted braking. Shit happens, I'd rather not deck if I bomb my belayer with rocks or they get attacked by bees, or just plain space out...

I own the Alpine Smart, the Juls, and the Alpine Up.

Alpine up is my favorite.

More thoughts on my blog, here:

larsonweb.com/blog/?tag=cli…

For the last three years I have been leading with an Alpine Up on Mammut Genesis 8.5s. I think the ability to quickly feed rope to a leader, without the device catching, is a huge plus. I use the guide mode regularly and like how predictably it releases.

Like some others, I have noticed that long, free-hanging rappels can start off a bit jerky, but this seems a small price to pay for all the advantages. If your ropes are too fat for autolocking raps, there is another mode for conventional ones.

One interesting safety feature: unlike a GriGri, the Alpine Up has a way to lock it off if erroneously rigged backwards.

Wow, lots of really useful information, thanks guys. I can get my hands on Smarts and Juls to play with, but not Click Ups. Haven't even seen one in person yet, no one around here carries it. I kind of use the left handed method petzl suggests for grigri but I don't like the way the rope rubs on the fixed plate when fast feeding. That edge is harsher than the nice rounded metal edge for the cover plate.

Right now, most of my climbing is indoors, with working my way outdoors this year. Not a whole lot of multi pitch climbing in the near future, unfortunately. So, I'll likely just get the Click Up instead of the Alpine Up for now, if I get either.

In that case, definitely get the ClickUp. It's even smoother than the AlpineUp for belaying single ropes, and it's cheaper.

I find the alpine up poor with thicker ropes, and fantastic with skinny twins

I’m hoping to revive this thread to see if there are more opinions on the alpine up. Are there more users out there?  Has the device changed at all?

Also, I have a partner that has the click up. She doesn’t believe she can rappel on it. I would think if you can safely lower someone, why couldn’t you rappel a single strand with a repsnur.

Another thread here: mountainproject.com/forum/t…

Greg D wrote: I’m hoping to revive this thread to see if there are more opinions on the alpine up. Are there more users out there?  Has the device changed at all?

Also, I have a partner that has the click up. She doesn’t believe she can rappel on it. I would think if you can safely lower someone, why couldn’t you rappel a single strand with a repsnur.

I am still using mine (6 years) and several (3) of my regular partners are using them too.  I love it but wish it were lighter and less bulky.  The alpine up is the same as it was, the click up has been redesigned recently.  I hope there will be another design iteration soon since they reworked the click up.

One of my regular partners started using the Alpine Up as her 1st belay device.  Eventually she thought she should try an ATC.  Tried it one time and gave up on it; much preferring the Alpine Up.

You could certainly rappel single line on a click up like one would with any other single line belay device.  (tandem rappel or the line anchored in some manner).

I use it a lot and have never had an issue with it locking up on ropes up to my old fatty 9.8. 10mm and up it feeds like shit but so does everything but an ATC. In my experience it doesn't always lock up on its own with a single strand but always has so far with doubles. I don't really care about the weight, I figure the ease of use is well worth the weight.

In my experience, once it has locked up, its not going anywhere, even with a single strand rappel or belay. The only thing I don't like is that I'm eventually have to order a new carabiner for it from overseas. That being said, the carabiner that comes with it has held up much longer than any other lockers with this type of device (alpine up, smart, mega jul, ATC Pilot, etc.). I really just wish that had a North American distributor so that shipping wouldn't be so expensive. 

JSH wrote: My spouse uses the Alpine up regularly with 8.5 doubles and loves it.  We don't consider it an auto-locking (Grigri-type) device, though it behaves similarly, we've seen some slippage.

Edit add:  The OP specifically asked about hand-edness.  Interesting that the Gri-gri doesn't come with a leftie option, since they've certainly made enough other variants. I can see where it would be awkward to reach around to the lever with your opposite hand! The Alpine up is symmetrical (same left-hand or right-hand) but I do feel like its lever is a bit more difficult and/or touchy than the Grigri, if that is an issue for you.

From what I've heard, especially from Maurine Beck, is that the vergo is hands down the best for lefties.  

The carabiner provided with the Alpine Up is virtually identical to my Black Diamond Rocklock Twistlock in terms of the diameter and profile of the section that fits through the Up.  I've been using the Rocklock for both the Alpine Up and Clickup for a few years with no problems.  The Rocklock actually provides a better release in guide mode, since there is more space inside the biner in which to tilt the Alpine Up.

Yo senders...there's a new version of the ClickUp coming out, so make sure you find that one, not the old one. ( telemark-pyrenees.com/climb…;tax=ex_vat&country=US&gclid=CjwKCAiA8rnfBRB3EiwAhrhBGvbZU2F1FX0SpSClhL-V0a0JQF7w9GUjrhvF_NS0fl89-fAHNIYpthoCpZQQAvD_BwE)

It has a little trap door/flap on the top that does a better job of separating the rope strands, protecting against accidental droppage.

I love the ClickUp, haven't used the Alpine, nor ClickUp+. I'll grab the + as soon as it's here in Boulder. I've found that guests belaying with an ABD for the first time, have the best luck with the ClickUp over the MegaJul, GriGri+, and the original Smart. In fairness, I've not used a Smart in several years, so I think it's gone thru a couple mods.

The ClickUp is great, but a side note: the DAV tracks accidents in their climbing gyms and the ClickUp has the highest accident rate of any of the ABDs. Ron at the AAC explained this to me---I think (without testing or anything but having used it a lot) it's probably due to the fact that if you have the rope strands parallel, it probably won't lock up on its own. None of the ABDs are "hands free", but were I forced to launch onto a hands-free GriGri or ClickUp, I'd take the GriGri! The new ClickUp+ (watch the videos) has a little rope-separator/trap door on top that seems like it will help with this issue.

Just a consideration. Poor belay technique is poor belay technique, so any device has a way to drop people...but the ClickUp might have a bit of a shortcoming in the original design....that said, I still use mine happily and trust clients to belay me with it---with adequate instruction! 

Looks like REI has ClickUp+s available--I just ordered one of the new ones. Good luck!

coppolillo wrote: ...a side note: the DAV tracks accidents in their climbing gyms and the ClickUp has the highest accident rate of any of the ABDs.

Rob, got a link for that article?  All I have is a DAV report from 2012 which studied not accidents but potentially dangerous behavior (as judged by observers looking for particular things).  In that report, the click-up came out better than Munter, tube, Grigri, and Smart.  It would be an interesting invalidation of those observation results if accidents somehow tracked in an opposite direction,

As a long-time user of the Alpine Up, I have to admit to skepticism about Ron's "explanation." Keeping the strands absolutely parallel during a fall will defeat locking in every assisted locking device I've seen as well as all belay plates.  It doesn't make sense that one of these devices would exhibit notably higher failure mode than another for exactly the same behavior, unless for some reason the population using one of the devices is significantly less experienced, something I don't imagine the DAV had any good way to control for.

hey Rich----first off, to be clear---that's MY theory about why the ClickUp might have a higher accident rate----and i'm not sure i concur about a GriGri+ and the strands being parallel...seems like it grabs just fine with parallel, but i must say---i've not tempted fate and caught falls while intentionally keeping strands parallel!

do you know Ron Fundurburke? i'll email him....happy to CC you on the mail, but not sure i have your personal address? PM me?

RC!

eli poss wrote:In my experience, once it has locked up, its not going anywhere, even with a single strand rappel or belay. The only thing I don't like is that I'm eventually have to order a new carabiner for it from overseas. That being said, the carabiner that comes with it has held up much longer than any other lockers with this type of device (alpine up, smart, mega jul, ATC Pilot, etc.). I really just wish that had a North American distributor so that shipping wouldn't be so expensive. 

epictv's shop - if you're buying over $100 worth of stuff - free shipping, no tax, 5% back on future orders. Just gotta combine it with a larger puchase - they have one in stock on sale for $13.75

I'm trying to see whether the Smart 2.0 or the Click Up + will be preferable for my wife to lead belay me with. Funny enough the original Smart built up some bad lead belay technique, releasing the lever to throw slack - with the Click Up + you need to actively feed rope to the device (i.e. belay like an ATC) and it won't lock; just try throwing slack without feeding and it'll lock depending on rope thickness and how its stacked below the belayer.
Haven't tried the Smart 2.0 yet to compare...