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chopped anchors at seneca...a PSA
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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Oct 14, 2012
modern man

its like these bolt choppers want to start a war. Do they all belong to the Flat Earth Society as well? I can hear it now- "I rapped off those trees in 1971 and it was fine for me then so its fine for everyone now"...


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By Mark'Indy' Kochte
Oct 14, 2012
Climb Maryland avatar

davidbr wrote:
Is Seneca Daze the bolted line just right of Prune? If so, its bolts were still there as of Wednesday, the 10th.


David, yes it is. Thanks for the update.


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By Mark'Indy' Kochte
Oct 14, 2012
Climb Maryland avatar

fair weather climber wrote:
its like these bolt choppers want to start a war. Do they all belong to the Flat Earth Society as well? I can hear it now- "I rapped off those trees in 1971 and it was fine for me then so its fine for everyone now"...


There used to be an extreme trad/sport climber 'war' back in the 90s. It was a 'holy war' for a long while. The heaviest hit were Connecticut crags, but it was not isolated to just there. It was pretty country-wide. But trad climbers were more tolerant of sport climbing ethics the further you got from CT. Everyone has their opinion about the appropriateness of bolts on a route that range the spectrum from "everything should be" to "nothing should be". Most of us fall somewhere inbetween. But as for bolted rap anchors, I can't think of anyone who detracted them to the point of chopping, until this incident. I would like to understand why they felt this was necessary and took it upon their own accord to enact, essentially ignoring and disrespecting the local ethic and hard work/time that the local climbers (shops, guides, other local climbers) in the tight-knit but relaxed community that makes up the Seneca climbers.


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By Mark O'Neal
From Nicholson, GA
Oct 14, 2012
1st trad lead - Northern Pillar at the Gunks

Wannabe wrote:
Just noticed that the route Seneca Daze has had its name changed to, "Acksaw and the Balless Boltchoppers" or something like that. Did this route also get chopped?


I believe that would be a subtle Tom Cecil dig on who started the chopping


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By Mark O'Neal
From Nicholson, GA
Oct 14, 2012
1st trad lead - Northern Pillar at the Gunks

quicksilver wrote:
We climbed well into the night at Seneca on Tuesday and rappeled from the tree above (Conns West 2)around midnight. There was 1 black tubular webbing sling and I left a sewn sling or two with a locking biner. I am old, beat up and slow but was climbing with two good young, strong climbers. It was a great adventure as we took all day and into the dark getting to the top. On the way Seth (who we knew from Bloomington, IN.)told us he got word about the chopping. The young Lady climbing with us had never rappeled before so she got to do her first raps in the dark off the trees - actually was a lot of fun. I forgot my helmet at the second rap tree (we had 2 70m ropres) so it is the tree 70 ft from the ground. If you happen to find it and are inclined to send it to me let me know and I will send you money for shipping and enough to buy a Pizza at The Front Porch. Thanks. P.S. Can someone start a shuttle service to and from the base of the rock, I had to sit on my butt and descend the Stairmaster in that manner - very tireing and funny in a way. Probably the last time I will climb there as my knees are gone but Seneca is still my favorite place ever to climb.


I heard a man and a woman on rappel at 9:30PM. There were multiple folks out there that late? We saw what we thought was a chalk bag on the Conn's West rappel on Wed morning. By the time we got there it was gone. I didn't see a helmet lying around anywhere when we rapped it around noon.


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By scott nearing
Oct 15, 2012

fair weather climber wrote:
its like these bolt choppers want to start a war. "...


I've read the thread... still in the dark; maybe someone who knows could start an 'alt' profile and explain why. It seems they owe the community at least that much.


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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Oct 15, 2012
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

I'm just wondering when they got chopped- not the date, but the time of day. First, it's not as if all these anchors were right next to each other, so it had to have taken some time. Second, unless someone climbed up there in the rain, or went in the middle of the night, how in the hell did they manage to chop the bolts at the Traffic Jam rap with no one seeing them? I don't think I've ever been up there and seen Traffic Jam empty for more than 20 minutes or so. Someone is either going up the last pitch of Old Man's, or rapping down.


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By Mark'Indy' Kochte
Oct 15, 2012
Climb Maryland avatar

My guess is mid-week, or last Tuesday. Not very many folks around mid-week as compared to the weekends. No mentioned of it over the weekend, unless the chops occurred late on Sunday after most folks left.


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By Wannabe
Oct 15, 2012

scott nearing wrote:
I've read the thread... still in the dark; maybe someone who knows could start an 'alt' profile and explain why. It seems they owe the community at least that much.


Scott,
I understand what you're saying but at this point think that this person or persons could probably explain their position and it still wouldn't make sense to me.

That having been said I did climb past one bolt that had been poorly chopped rather than removed this weekend and a bunch of bolts that aren't in the version of Barne's book that I have. Made me wonder if that wasn't part of what precipitated it.


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By Eric Boesch
Oct 15, 2012

Wannabe wrote:
Scott, I understand what you're saying but at this point think that this person or persons could probably explain their position and it still wouldn't make sense to me. That having been said I did climb past one bolt that had been poorly chopped rather than removed this weekend and a bunch of bolts that aren't in the version of Barne's book that I have. Made me wonder if that wasn't part of what precipitated it.


The guilty party might or might not be a "real climber". The last time a suspected tagger fell and died trying to reach a remote target was all of four days ago. The anchors might make a nice trophy for some kid with a similar mindset. The easiest route up and down is rated 5.2 and doable without training or gear if safety is not top priority.


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By H2O
Oct 15, 2012

The thought process of the people who cut the anchors is not well thought out. Do they think they won't get replaced? Not only that what they cut and possibly the manner in which they cut the anchors still scars the rock and it is not like they won't be replaced. So it's a waste of time and not well thought out. The economic issues are another subject, granted not the goal of the cutters, but an impact non the less and possibly a serious one for the area.


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By Mark O'Neal
From Nicholson, GA
Oct 15, 2012
1st trad lead - Northern Pillar at the Gunks

Jake Jones wrote:
I'm just wondering when they got chopped- not the date, but the time of day. First, it's not as if all these anchors were right next to each other, so it had to have taken some time. Second, unless someone climbed up there in the rain, or went in the middle of the night, how in the hell did they manage to chop the bolts at the Traffic Jam rap with no one seeing them? I don't think I've ever been up there and seen Traffic Jam empty for more than 20 minutes or so. Someone is either going up the last pitch of Old Man's, or rapping down.


That's what I wonder. They were there Sunday evening, it rained Monday, and they were gone by late morning Tuesday. My bet is Sunday night.


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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Oct 15, 2012
modern man

just in case this was missed, lets all give a BIG F.U. to whomever it was who feels like the local ethic GOD, you sir(pretty sure its not a woman) are a coward! who knows, maybe kenny went south for the weekend. www.stopken.org/Home.html


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By Mark'Indy' Kochte
Oct 16, 2012
Climb Maryland avatar

H2O wrote:
The thought process of the people who cut the anchors is not well thought out. Do they think they won't get replaced? Not only that what they cut and possibly the manner in which they cut the anchors still scars the rock and it is not like they won't be replaced. So it's a waste of time and not well thought out. The economic issues are another subject, granted not the goal of the cutters, but an impact non the less and possibly a serious one for the area.


I would hazard a guess that it's either a statement they are making, or an inconvenience they wanted to impart on the Seneca climbing community, or both.


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By Don MacKenzie
From Seattle, WA
Oct 16, 2012

It seems like there has been a little "convenience anchor creep" at Seneca over the last few years, with more bolted anchors popping up where there were none before. (Maybe I'm imagining it? But I distinctly remember having that impression that last spring when I was back for the first time in a couple of years).

With growing traffic this kind of makes sense. But, new bolted anchors at the end of a pitch (mid-route) kind of change the character of a route and should be avoided. I see no reason for someone to do this unilaterally, without consulting with the local community.


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By newrivermike
Nov 8, 2012

Just a note about the galvanized eye bolts that came up in the thread earlier. First, I totally agree that in today's world we should all be placing stainless hardware. BUT...some French guys came to the New in 1989 and placed those big galvanized eye bolts on the four routes they established at Beauty Mt. Those bolts have outlived everything else around them despite being some of the oldest in the region. Not a speck of rust. Absolutely bomber. When I went to France two years ago, I saw them everywhere. All over Ceuse, even in the water streaks. I never saw rust on any of them.


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By Brian Adzima
From the Paris of Appalachia
Nov 8, 2012
somewhere in WV

Extremely lame.


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By M Sprague
Administrator
From New England
Nov 8, 2012
Lichen head. Me, with my usual weatherbeaten, lichen covered look from scrubbing a new route.

newrivermike wrote:
Just a note about the galvanized eye bolts that came up in the thread earlier. First, I totally agree that in today's world we should all be placing stainless hardware. BUT...some French guys came to the New in 1989 and placed those big galvanized eye bolts on the four routes they established at Beauty Mt. Those bolts have outlived everything else around them despite being some of the oldest in the region. Not a speck of rust. Absolutely bomber. When I went to France two years ago, I saw them everywhere. All over Ceuse, even in the water streaks. I never saw rust on any of them.


That is what we use at Rumney and they have worked great. They don't loosen up and hold up well except one anchor that was in water most of the year. There are varying qualities of galvanized finish. The ones I used to get that were made in China were better than those made in America. The downside to them is they are a real pain to remove if they were put in badly or holds broke, changing the clipping stances. They should only be used by people who are experienced enough and have good craftsmanship so they don't make a mess. For really hard solid rock I would stick with 1/2" stainless bolts like the Rawl Bolts that can be removed. If you are having a bolt war, glue-ins usually wont stop people. They just make even more of a mess when they smash them with a sledge hammer or something stupid.

It is funny, I remember those bolts at Beauty from my first visit there just after they were put in. I had never seen them before and was kind of horrified they were so big. If I remember right, they weren't countersunk properly and were in a big boulder so they were kind of jarring.


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