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Jan 21, 2013
What makes a canyoneering rope different than a "normal" dynamic climbing rope? I realize that canyoneering ropes are typically smaller diameter (and shorter), but what else is different?

Would they be acceptable to use for a top-rope setup on a home climbing wall?
Dan Felix
Joined Aug 24, 2012
46 points
Jan 21, 2013
They are static ropes so you don't get bouncing and sawing on rappel. Being static they also dont act like a sponge and hold a ton of water like dynamic ropes do. I wouldn't recommend them for leading, or even TR'ing. Pete Spri
Joined Jun 1, 2009
138 points
Jan 21, 2013
tougher and more sheathing as well. results in a stiffer rope sometimes. GLD
Joined Jan 19, 2012
97 points
Jan 21, 2013
Following up a new route out in the Mojave Desert....
My canyoneering ropes are polyester (Imlay). They won't absorb water (but they do sink, ask my clmibing/canyoneering partner about that one), have thick sheaths that keep junk away from the core, and are very very stiff. They rock for canyoneering, suck for everything else. Just like typical beefy static ropes for everything but rigging and more positioning type stuff.

With that being said do NOT climb on canyoneering rope. They are even lower stretch than a typical static rope, are thinner and very difficult to control with just a single bite stuffed in an ATC.

Strength ratings are high for canyoneering ropes, but even top roping you put 2x as much force on the rope as when rappelling, not accounting for any kind of falls.

TL;DR version:
Canyoneer with canyoneering ropes; climb with climbing ropes. Climbing ropes are cheaper anyway, and in general it's not great practice to use gear outside of it's intended purpose, unless it's an emergency and it's an only option.
Davis Stevenson
From Flagstaff, Arizona
Joined Dec 5, 2010
26 points
Jan 24, 2013
Davis Stevenson wrote:
My canyoneering ropes are polyester (Imlay). They won't absorb water (but they do sink, ask my clmibing/canyoneering partner about that one), have thick sheaths that keep junk away from the core, and are very very stiff. They rock for canyoneering, suck for everything else. Just like typical beefy static ropes for everything but rigging and more positioning type stuff. With that being said do NOT climb on canyoneering rope. They are even lower stretch than a typical static rope, are thinner and very difficult to control with just a single bite stuffed in an ATC. Strength ratings are high for canyoneering ropes, but even top roping you put 2x as much force on the rope as when rappelling, not accounting for any kind of falls. TL;DR version: Canyoneer with canyoneering ropes; climb with climbing ropes. Climbing ropes are cheaper anyway, and in general it's not great practice to use gear outside of it's intended purpose, unless it's an emergency and it's an only option.


Would like to see the math on that one...

The core on a lot of the bluewater cayonering ropes is dynema or polyester as apposed to nylon. Actually a lot of their cayonering ropes leave out nylon all together (except for the cayonline and canyon rope)
NorCalNomad
From San Francisco
Joined Oct 6, 2011
116 points
Jan 24, 2013
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch
NorCalNomad wrote:
Would like to see the math on that one...


Weight of top roped person + weight of belayer. I think that's the math.

I thought this was interesting:

rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum...

That said, I'd TR with a canyon rope with the same precautions I'd use in a climbing gym that uses thick, gym ropes or static rope.
Brian in SLC
Joined Oct 6, 2003
11,031 points
Jan 24, 2013
Following up a new route out in the Mojave Desert....
Brian in SLC wrote:
Weight of top roped person + weight of belayer. I think that's the math. I thought this was interesting: rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum... That said, I'd TR with a canyon rope with the same precautions I'd use in a climbing gym that uses thick, gym ropes or static rope.


Yes, basic pulley systems everyone learned in Physics in High School. think of it as a weight/counterweight. To keep the climber from falling, there must be an equal opposite force on the other rope. If you have a 200 lb climber, there must be 200 lbs force on the belay end, leading to a total system force of 400 lbs pulling down at the anchor.

To equalize on a double strand rappel, you're exerting half of your body weight's force on each half, leading to a total system force of your weight. A smooth and zippy rappel will actually have a force on the anchor lower than body weight, but don't count on it, because any bouncing will bump force way up.

I've TR'd on static, and it's not too bad. I'd just be concerned as my static bluewater stretches about 3.5%, actually, when loaded, where my Imlay will only stretch about 0.5%. If you didn't stick a dyno and were already on a loose belay you would be in for some very high forces. (I'll do the math on this when I have a bit more time)

OP, if you're interested I have a bunch of barely used Bluewater static that I could part with cheap for you if you want a little more safety and comfort on your home wall.
Davis Stevenson
From Flagstaff, Arizona
Joined Dec 5, 2010
26 points
Jan 24, 2013
blah
I use 8 mm canyon Pro from Bluewater as a rap line, tag line and haul line. its Technora/Nylon sheath and Dyneema core is crazy durable and really light, its also stronger than a steel cable by a 4000lbs margin. also (ultimate breaking strength) Rob Warden, Space Lizard
From Springdale Ut
Joined Dec 19, 2011
84 points
Jan 24, 2013
Following up a new route out in the Mojave Desert....
Rob Warden, Space Lizard wrote:
I use 8 mm canyon Pro from Bluewater as a rap line, tag line and haul line. its Technora/Nylon sheath and Dyneema core is crazy durable and really light, its also stronger than a steel cable by a 4000lbs margin. also (ultimate breaking strength)


What's the handling like on that rope? I've considered using my canyoneering ropes for purposes like that in a pinch, but the Imlays handle only slightly better than steel cable.
Davis Stevenson
From Flagstaff, Arizona
Joined Dec 5, 2010
26 points
Jan 25, 2013
Brian in SLC wrote:
Weight of top roped person + weight of belayer. I think that's the math. I thought this was interesting: rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum... That said, I'd TR with a canyon rope with the same precautions I'd use in a climbing gym that uses thick, gym ropes or static rope.


wow I'm an idiot...drinking + late night + lousy day = dumb posts.
NorCalNomad
From San Francisco
Joined Oct 6, 2011
116 points
Jan 26, 2013
blah
Davis Stevenson wrote:
What's the handling like on that rope? I've considered using my canyoneering ropes for purposes like that in a pinch, but the Imlays handle only slightly better than steel cable.


stiff but pliable no worse than any other static line but its thin and light. its a huge up grade from the Imaly stuff, however the the 8.3mm line from Imlay is pretty nice and I would consider using for the same purpose. I just have happened to get a bunch of Canyon pro for free and started putting it to use
Rob Warden, Space Lizard
From Springdale Ut
Joined Dec 19, 2011
84 points
Jan 29, 2013
Davis Stevenson wrote:
What's the handling like on that rope? I've considered using my canyoneering ropes for purposes like that in a pinch, but the Imlays handle only slightly better than steel cable.


I don't know what ropes you have, Davis, but the Canyon Fire and the Canyonero are both reasonably soft, softer than the prior offerings, which were really stiff.

There is no problem with toproping with a static rope, even a VERY static rope. Unless you do really stupid stuff that results in a 10 foot lob before getting caught. Would be fine on a home climbing wall setup, maybe even beneficial as you will have a lot less boing when you come off.

More info: imlaycanyongear.com/ropes2.php

Tom (Imlay Canyon Gear)
Tom Jones
From Mt Carmel UT
Joined Feb 2, 2009
0 points
Jan 29, 2013
Following up a new route out in the Mojave Desert....
Tom Jones wrote:
I don't know what ropes you have, Davis, but the Canyon Fire and the Canyonero are both reasonably soft, softer than the prior offerings, which were really stiff. There is no problem with toproping with a static rope, even a VERY static rope. Unless you do really stupid stuff that results in a 10 foot lob before getting caught. Would be fine on a home climbing wall setup, maybe even beneficial as you will have a lot less boing when you come off. More info: imlaycanyongear.com/ropes2.php Tom (Imlay Canyon Gear)


My climbing buddy has a new Canyon Fire that handles very well... much better than my Canyonero, which much more stiff and difficult to manage. Not that I haven't been happy with your ropes, they've taken us down dozens of canyons and are better than anything else I've used. it's just not..... perfect? Haha. I would be extremely hesitant climbing on that stuff, but it ROCKS down in the canyons.

EDIT: I'll also be ordering another potshot, new rope bag, and probably a pack from you this season... love your gear!

OP, if you are going to use static rope on your home wall keep that in mind when you're anchoring your rope. Think of the force of dropping 3' onto static line, double that, and that's roughly the peak force on whatever anchor you have
Davis Stevenson
From Flagstaff, Arizona
Joined Dec 5, 2010
26 points
Jan 29, 2013
Another plug for Tom's ropes...I've used the Canyon and Canyon Fire, both great lines. I've never found the handling to be a problem or concern. Great stuff! Mark Lewis
From Salt Lake City, Utah
Joined Mar 15, 2012
603 points
Jan 29, 2013
Following up a new route out in the Mojave Desert....
And I feel like I just made an ass of myself in front on my favorite canyon gear company -.-

Maybe it's just user error on my part since I'm used to easy handling of 9.5mm dynamic climbing ropes... =/
Davis Stevenson
From Flagstaff, Arizona
Joined Dec 5, 2010
26 points
Jan 29, 2013
Davis Stevenson wrote:
And I feel like I just made an ass of myself in front on my favorite canyon gear company -.- Maybe it's just user error on my part since I'm used to easy handling of 9.5mm dynamic climbing ropes... =/


Thanks for your kind words.

I still use a dynamic rope, you know, once a year when for some reason I go in an upward direction. I am always amazed at how soft and noodley they are... It makes a huge difference what you are used to. To me, a rope is "too stiff" when you cannot effectively tie knots in it - one reason we backed off on the stiffness when making the Canyon Fire and Canyonero ropes. AND, there is a significant variation in stiffness from piece to piece, often based more on how they have been wetted and dried than how they were when they came off the braider.

Tom
Tom Jones
From Mt Carmel UT
Joined Feb 2, 2009
0 points
Jan 29, 2013
Thunderbolt Peak in the Palisades
I will beat this to death and put another plug in for Tom's ropes. I have the predacessor to the canyonero. It has held up to sharp rock in death valley, granite in the sierras, granite in the san gabriels, and sandstone in Utah. The ropes are great for wet and dry alike.

I prefer the stiffness over the Sterling C-IV which is very supple in the hands.

His rope bags are great too.
randy88fj62
Joined May 28, 2010
67 points
Administrator
Feb 2, 2013
It should be noted that not all canyoneering ropes are static. Some are low-stretch (No, that's not static, and yes many abuse the term and write it with the intention of meaning static.) Low-stretch ropes are designed to be used in scenarios where low-fall-factor falls are possible. They stretch less than dynamic ropes, but more than static. Examples include the Edelweiss Canyon and Edelweiss Speleo. 20 kN
From Hawaii
Joined Feb 2, 2009
665 points


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