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Can someone please explain this to me??
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By Sir Wanksalot
From County Jail
Dec 7, 2011

This has to be the dumbest argument EVER! Who the F**K cares what these guys are doing. Sound like jealous bitches...


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By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Dec 7, 2011
OTL

Crap - this thread has told me I have aided all my free climbs. I'm not just sure; I'm HIV positive.


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By fat cow
From Salinas, CA
Dec 7, 2011
perfect seam

so what do you guys all do for work? daily i sit here at my desk reading these sometimes hilarious threads from a consistent group, wondering, what do these infamous posters do for a living? This thread lost most of its umph, anyone care to share?

To start, I am an accountant at a resort hotel in Monterey CA, which is why i have time to peruse MP endlessly...


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By Dave Cummings
From Grand Junction, CO
Dec 7, 2011
me on my redpoint

Also consider that they routes there probably wouldn't go free without ice tools, especially if they are rated that hard.


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By J. Broussard
From CordryCorner
Dec 7, 2011
Young Good Free Face, 11b

Have yet to hear any middle ground here. It's all one way or another. Can't we agree there is importance to the crag selection for such an activity?

My ONLY concern here is that these climbers are publicizing their playground with out broaching this important subject. Introducing the crag should begin with "We decided to trash (my choice of wording) this crag because (fill in the blank)... Once the rock quality, plethora of mining debris and quarries are identified to have already blemished the area I think we'd all find a lot more ease with the situation.

Let's think about the example we set by not mentioning these facts when publicizing a new area. I guess this is on R&I for not establishing this by simply asking the athletes this question. Seems like a trend in recent climbing articles to completely ignore pertinent information and simply present the story for as much general appeal as possible. Remember the Devil's Head thread?


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By Cor
Dec 7, 2011
black nasty

Jack,
are you referring to the sport park in boulder canyon?
what a perfect place to drytool... with all those bolts and chipped holds, only 2 minutes from the road. what could be better?! ;D


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By Jason N.
From Grand Junction
Dec 7, 2011
Indy pass

I believe David is trolling us, or at least being using hyperbole for comedic effect...


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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Dec 7, 2011
modern man

genetics?
genetics?


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By Eric Fjellanger
Dec 7, 2011
Me on top of Chianti Spire

David Sahalie wrote:
i really am considering finding some steep, soft, chossy rock and drytooling it until there are pockets big enough to free at say 5.12.


Please please do this and report back.


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By Francisco Di Poi
From Boulder, CO
Dec 7, 2011

My opinion doesn't stem from a wealth of experience....but I have dry stooled and have sport climbed. It seemed like it took more focus and precision to prevent the ice axe from slipping off a small ledge and smashing me in the face than it did to grab a hold and pull. I don't know...what these guys are doing seems pretty awesome.....I don't see what the big deal is.

Disclaimer...I wasn't climbing 5.13 or above


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By Ian F.
From Phx
Dec 7, 2011

David Sahalie wrote:
my main observations are: saying the rock doesn't have enough holds and that it is chossy and in an area with mine tailings is a poor excuse to beat the crap out of the rock.



I would like to know exactly how these guys are beating the hell out of the rock. Have you ever seen this place? Any idea where it is?


They are using an area, that unless it was brought to your attention, or you were very observant would never know it was used for anything. People drive by it all summer long with no idea what goes on there when the snow falls and the road closes. Is it marred, and beat to hell if no one ever took notice in the first place.

I can see an argument for this elsewhere, where established rock climbing is prevalent, But this is not one of those places.


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By Jake D.
From Northeast
Dec 7, 2011

i'd also like him to show us how they beat up the rock. All the drytooling ive ever seen is pretty precise tool placements not swinging like ice climbing.


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By Hank Caylor
Administrator
From Golden, CO
Dec 7, 2011
Lone goat..

Andrew Haag wrote:
If Hank Caylor would just post a pic of some hottie in bikini dry toolin, everything would be ok.


wedgie bikini BASE jumpers is all I got..I'm a Texan and we usually don't do that icepick, rock, clawed boot thingy.
--- Invalid image id: 107397538 ---


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By Leo Paik
Administrator
From Westminster, Colorado
Dec 7, 2011

David Sahalie and the rest who are complaining about this tiny crag:

Have you gone and tried these routes as sport climbs? Have you tried these routes as dry tool routes? If you haven't, you might want to do so.

In between your laps, you might just look over your shoulder and spot the other crags in the area. This tiny crag is less than 1% of the rock visibile from the location. It is in a heavily traveled location for ice climbing, mixed climbing, 4WD adventures, hiking, mountain flower photography, and maybe even some rock climbing. If you can't appreciate sharing the resources in this beautiful location, you may consider asking the folks with whom you are there for a bit of perspective. There is an amazing amount of adventure within your vision from this very spot.


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By Old and Busted
From Centennial, CO
Dec 7, 2011
Stabby

I think the knee-jerking (I'm guilty) is due to all of us dreading the day kids start breaking their tools out at Shelf Road.


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By Dave Cummings
From Grand Junction, CO
Dec 8, 2011
me on my redpoint

Hank Caylor wrote:
wedgie bikini BASE jumpers is all I got..I'm a Texan and we usually don't do that icepick, rock, clawed boot thingy.



awesome


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By Cor
Dec 8, 2011
black nasty

we should only dry-tool in areas already damaged like:

ouray (where we have been talking about) and
the sport park, boulder canyon (chipped routes)

;D

oh yeah, any slabs too... we don't like them!
slabs are bad, ummK


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By Jake D.
From Northeast
Dec 8, 2011

David Sahalie wrote:
then you need to get out more. here as an article that rationally discusses the pros and cons, and doesn't hide from the fact that drytooling alters the rock: rockclimbinguk.co.uk/dry-tooling-evil-crag-wrecking-practice>>>


did ya read the article?

"But what about the mountain crags where classic summer rock routes are seeing ‘cold’ ascents using ice tools and crampons? Is the damage done to these routes any different than the scratches and scrapes caused by winter traffic? No really, says Mountaineer Andy Cave; ‘It is sad if a super classic route gets scratched but I guess there are lots of routes in Scotland that get damaged all the time, and lots of ridges that get scratched from walkers in crampons. Hopefully last winter was an exceptional one and lots of these classic routes don’t become too wintry again, meaning folk don’t damage them.’ Rob Gibson agrees that ‘that there can be no argument that using axes and crampons to climb will damage the rock, so it boils down to a debate about where scratches will be tolerated.’ He says that ‘traditionally mountain ridges have been climbed during winter and the scratches caused by this were unsightly to me when I first saw them, but this appears acceptable to climbers and walkers. Also in the mountains, summer drainage lines and vegetated ledges make for good winter routes that are not controversial."


Again, people are generally not dry tooling on places where there are rock routes. there is also not any swinging involved.

whatever, bet you think the Reds are still out to get us and Faux News is "fair and balanced"


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By kevin fox
From parker
Dec 8, 2011
cody


drytooling is fun. that is why i do it. and big name climbers participate. Will Gadd, Sam Elias,etc. I give 2 shits if you do or don't like it. I'm doing it. there is no law against it. in the words of Dave Chapelle playing the character Rick James, "Fuck your couch!


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By Old and Busted
From Centennial, CO
Dec 8, 2011
Stabby

kevin fox wrote:
drytooling is fun. that is why i do it. and big name climbers participate. Will Gadd, Sam Elias,etc. I give 2 shits if you do or don't like it. I'm doing it. there is no law against it. in the words of Dave Chapelle playing the character Rick James, "Fuck your couch!

Seen this sentiment posted several times here, including the developer's blog. My overall concern is, what is there in place keeping drytoolers off of established routes? Nothing but a thin veil of personal choice. Which means it is inevitable that this practice will eventually migrate out. What is the proponents plan for this?


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By Buff Johnson
Dec 8, 2011
smiley face

Don't tool climbs in established crag areas where ice & alpine climbs aren't prevalent, it's simple to me.


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By Jake D.
From Northeast
Dec 8, 2011

David Sahalie wrote:
ah yeah, and I also read: "He agrees however that if dry tooling is seriously damaging fine rock routes and only a minority are climbing them it should be discouraged. " It isn't a black/white issue, Fox news guy


"he agrees IF (IF IF IF IF)..."

which is why dry tool areas like the start of this thread are utter choss piles. you're not going to find the next Astroman up there. you guys act like these guys just go blindly onto a cliff and just start wacking away.


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By jack roberts
Dec 8, 2011

"What is there keeping the drytoolers of of established routes? A thin veil of personal choice. Which means it is inevitable that this practice will eventually migrate out......."
There is nothing in place to keep climbers from doing this and even if there were a small majority might decide that rules don't apply to them......

Maybe to some extent this statement has some cred. There are too many climbers who don't care about how their actions affect others to be able to control it all. There are too many of us now and too many who only care about themselves.

The massive bolting of previous trad routes is a good example of this. What keeps some people off those old, run-out trad routes is peer pressure to not take that action. Give those sport climbers the 'consent" to bolt up their own cliff and leave other cliffs alone. Drytooling will be no different. Leave that crag in Ouray to be developed for M-climbing and those climbers will probably not go to some cliff which is dedicated to rock climbing. Scruffy cliffs have long been ignored for developing rock routes are usually the best for drytooling anyway........

I know that in the Boulder climbing community there are more people drytooling than the majority of climbers there realize. Most of these climbers are very conscientious about putting steel to rock and don't scratch up the rock.........Drytooling in this canyon so far has NOT left its mark..........


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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Dec 8, 2011
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

Notice the lack of an apostrophe in the word apostrophes; plural.
Notice the lack of an apostrophe in the word apostrophes; plural.


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By Jake D.
From Northeast
Dec 8, 2011

David Sahalie wrote:
I do see the difference, but until reinforcing chossy rock is seen as a viable option to drytooling, I am unsupportive of drytooling on any rock in the same way the majority of climbers are unsupportive of rock modification of any sort. Saying that one cant reinforce choss so it can be climbed with one's own tendons, and instead one can use artificial tendons (axes) that do modify the rock to some debateable degree, is the height of a double-standard. i do know what a strawman argument is, and this isn't it. example, this thread: mountainproject.com/v/nm-ice-climbing/107390913 is about an area that has bouldering that has been glued, and at the same area, people drytool on bolted routes. but, the gluers have been constantly haranged for their actions and drytooling is seen as a legitimate activity. see where I'm coming from on this?


But the places in Ourey are a local consensus that it is a dry tool crag. NO ONE climbs it with their hands. getting butthurt because a crag near you cannot come to a reasonable consensus that will let the boulderers use the low area and the dry toolers can have an approach route up one end to the upper part is the locals problem.

boulderers that have chipped and glued contrived problems complaining about holds getting messed up is kinda funny though. "i reject your reality and substitute my own!" -AS


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