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Can someone please explain this to me??
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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Dec 5, 2011
El Chorro

Rock and Ice

So... is there just no possibility of rock climbing in this cave (or other dry-tooling areas)? I mean, doesn't the dry-tooling mess up otherwise good rock? I understand the need to practice dry-tooling and mixed climbing but I don't get climbing a route w/o any ice on it using ice tools. What's the deal?


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By J. Broussard
From CordryCorner
Dec 5, 2011
Young Good Free Face, 11b

Ryan Williams wrote:
I mean, doesn't the dry-tooling mess up otherwise good rock?


Even if it is bad rock, how does one justify a style of climbing that is guaranteed to mar the rock?


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By Kevin O'Connor
From Salt Lake City, UT
Dec 5, 2011
Needles, SD

I thought the exact same thing as you did when I saw this. I would like to know what is so wrong with this rock that it cannot be climbed without the use of tools (which I can imagine destroys the rock). Where is the ethic behind dry tooling only?


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By Austin Baird
From SLC, Utah
Dec 5, 2011
Me scaring years off my mom's life

Kevin O'Connor wrote:
I thought the exact same thing as you did when I saw this. I would like to know what is so wrong with this rock that it cannot be climbed without the use of tools (which I can imagine destroys the rock). Where is the ethic behind dry tooling only?



My question exactly. Anyone? Bueller?


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By Phill T
Dec 5, 2011

too cold to climb without gloves on?


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By JPVallone
Dec 5, 2011

Wow, in some of the photos, Rock shoes with Tools, I am so confused?


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By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Dec 5, 2011
OTL

Let the comments begin:

"Putting the tool in tooling. Shouldn't this be considered aid climbing?"

visualadventures.com/climbing/let-the-dry-tooling-games-begi>>>


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By Crag Dweller
From New York, NY
Dec 5, 2011
My navigator keeps me from getting lost

it's Ouray.


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By mr.dobo
Dec 5, 2011

Did any of you morons(in a playful friendly tone) think to email Jason and ask him? It's as least as difficult as posting this thread.


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By Sir Wanksalot
From County Jail
Dec 5, 2011

I was dry tooling this morning when I woke up with morning wood.


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By jmeizis
From Colorado Springs, CO
Dec 5, 2011
The Beginning of Mr. Clean (5.8) at the Barkeater Cliffs in Adirondack Park NY.

If the rock is similar to everything else in Ouray then it's crappy rock that you wouldn't want to free climb anyways, as are most dry tooling areas. I know the photographer. I'll ask him next time I see him but in my experience I'm going to guess that's the reason people feel free to drytool.


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By Kevin O'Connor
From Salt Lake City, UT
Dec 5, 2011
Needles, SD

So if I am correct they trust the rock enough to bolt it, but not enough to weight it with hands and feet?


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By Sam Feuerborn
From Durango, CO
Dec 5, 2011
Castle Wood Canyon, May '09

also consider the rock type and how it fractures, in my limited experience with dry tooling in Ouray the placements for picks and crampons are far smaller than those used for hand holds and feet, similarly some of the roofs bolted in those pictures in combination with the holds described might make for the first 5.16 so get after it folks i guess.


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By jmeizis
From Colorado Springs, CO
Dec 5, 2011
The Beginning of Mr. Clean (5.8) at the Barkeater Cliffs in Adirondack Park NY.

It'd be like climbing a road cut. You could do it but why. There's places where there can be bolts placed. I'm sure it's a pain to find them though.


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By cjdrover
From Somerville, MA
Dec 5, 2011
Taken at MWV Icefest 2014.

When did this "dry tooling" grading start? D11 - seriously? What's the difference between dry tooling and crack jumaring with a cam?


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By Monomaniac
Administrator
From Morrison, CO
Dec 5, 2011
Insurrection, 5.14c.  Photo Adam Sanders.

cjdrover wrote:
What's the difference between dry tooling and crack jumaring with a cam?


The difference is that crack jumaring is harder!


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By Monomaniac
Administrator
From Morrison, CO
Dec 5, 2011
Insurrection, 5.14c.  Photo Adam Sanders.

jmeizis wrote:
It'd be like climbing a road cut. You could do it but why. There's places where there can be bolts placed. I'm sure it's a pain to find them though.


This crag is no more of a road cut than half of the developed cliffs at Rifle. The rock in the photos is certainly good enough to rock climb.


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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Dec 5, 2011
El Chorro

mr.dobo wrote:
Did any of you morons(in a playful friendly tone) think to email Jason and ask him? It's as least as difficult as posting this thread.


I guess I would have but I thought that I'd get an answer pretty fast. I was kind of surprised to see that so many other people were also confused. I wasn't trying to start a debate or anything, just honestly curious.

If the rock is of shitty quality then why would it be any more fun to climb on w/ tools than w/ your hands? And if the rock is of good quality but the features are too small to be climbed without tools... well, then that just sucks! Someone could climb it...


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By Tom Hanson
Dec 5, 2011
Climber Drawing

Dry stooling?

a.k.a Shitting all over someone else's area


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By k. riemondy
From Boulder, Co
Dec 5, 2011

For me, I drytool in places like Ouray or Vail, to gain experience and confidence for mixed (ice and rock) routes in committing environments (i.e. RMNP in winter). It is a form of aid, but for me, it is a type of aid that is more physically engaging than dangling in aiders. I do both for different reasons. Try it sometime if you want to understand it.
Drytooling definitely scars the rock, but it is worth noting that most drytooling crags are in places with chossy, dirty, and unattractive rock. The chossy nature of the rock produces many seams, cracks, and features that are amendable to crampons and tools. You could probably free climb in these places, but it rarely occurs, because the rock isn't generally enticing to people looking to put up new areas.
I would think that there is enough rock around to allow people to practice sport, trad, aid, drytooling, or whatever, without overly limiting each user group's experience.


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By cjdrover
From Somerville, MA
Dec 5, 2011
Taken at MWV Icefest 2014.

k. riemondy wrote:
For me, I drytool in places like Ouray or Vail, to gain experience and confidence for mixed (ice and rock) routes in committing environments (i.e. RMNP in winter).


Very fair - but do you climb 45 degree overhanging caves in RMNP in winter - wearing rock shoes? Of course not. Anyways mostly agree with you, the mixed lines I've done in NH are all total garbage outside of winter and no one seems to really care. I just don't understand the R&I coverage.


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By -sp
From East-Coast
Dec 5, 2011
Buenos Dias!

I've just spent the last hour in a grueling effort to try, even a little bit, to care. And I have to be completely honest...






















I just don't.


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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Dec 5, 2011
El Chorro

k. riemondy wrote:
For me, I drytool in places like Ouray or Vail, to gain experience and confidence for mixed (ice and rock) routes in committing environments (i.e. RMNP in winter). It is a form of aid, but for me, it is a type of aid that is more physically engaging than dangling in aiders. I do both for different reasons. Try it sometime if you want to understand it. Drytooling definitely scars the rock, but it is worth noting that most drytooling crags are in places with chossy, dirty, and unattractive rock. The chossy nature of the rock produces many seams, cracks, and features that are amendable to crampons and tools. You could probably free climb in these places, but it rarely occurs, because the rock isn't generally enticing to people looking to put up new areas. I would think that there is enough rock around to allow people to practice sport, trad, aid, drytooling, or whatever, without overly limiting each user group's experience.


I don't have any problem w/ dry-tooling... I just don't know that much about it. I imagine that I would like it.

But yea, this is what I was wondering. If it was just people making use of rock that would probably not be worth the effort otherwise. Sounds like that is usually the case.


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By J. Broussard
From CordryCorner
Dec 5, 2011
Young Good Free Face, 11b

What ever happened to leave no trace? Can someone please explain to me how dry-tooling follows this very simple guideline??
Please, I'm baffled.

And while it breaks my heart to see chalk I've left on a hold while climbing. In no way is that chalk a permanent reminder of my ascent. Remember when clean aid came into practice? Perhaps that's something we could relate this conversation to?


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By Buff Johnson
Dec 5, 2011
smiley face

it's a secret


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By Mut
Dec 5, 2011

Well at least they did it in some obscure cave and not on something like the Hallucinogen Wall.

@Jeffeos - Leave no trace? Thats funny. I'd say 80% of climbers could care less about the leave no trace ehtic. Look at any popular sport area. The place is covered with chalk, full of bolts, every start is packed out and void of vegitation and there are probably fixed or "project" draws all over the place.


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