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Can someone please explain this to me??
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Administrator
Dec 5, 2011
El Chorro
Rock and Ice

So... is there just no possibility of rock climbing in this cave (or other dry-tooling areas)? I mean, doesn't the dry-tooling mess up otherwise good rock? I understand the need to practice dry-tooling and mixed climbing but I don't get climbing a route w/o any ice on it using ice tools. What's the deal?
Ryan Williams
From London (sort of)
Joined May 10, 2009
1,468 points
Dec 5, 2011
Young Good Free Face, 11b
Ryan Williams wrote:
I mean, doesn't the dry-tooling mess up otherwise good rock?


Even if it is bad rock, how does one justify a style of climbing that is guaranteed to mar the rock?
J. Broussard
From CordryCorner
Joined Feb 21, 2011
112 points
Dec 5, 2011
Needles, SD
I thought the exact same thing as you did when I saw this. I would like to know what is so wrong with this rock that it cannot be climbed without the use of tools (which I can imagine destroys the rock). Where is the ethic behind dry tooling only? Kevin O'Connor
From Jacksonville, AR
Joined Jun 18, 2009
250 points
Dec 5, 2011
Me scaring years off my mom's life
Kevin O'Connor wrote:
I thought the exact same thing as you did when I saw this. I would like to know what is so wrong with this rock that it cannot be climbed without the use of tools (which I can imagine destroys the rock). Where is the ethic behind dry tooling only?



My question exactly. Anyone? Bueller?
Austin Baird
From SLC, Utah
Joined Apr 26, 2009
101 points
Dec 5, 2011
too cold to climb without gloves on? Phill T
Joined May 5, 2008
148 points
Dec 5, 2011
Wow, in some of the photos, Rock shoes with Tools, I am so confused? JPVallone
Joined Aug 25, 2004
199 points
Dec 5, 2011
OTL
Let the comments begin:

"Putting the tool in tooling. Shouldn't this be considered aid climbing?"

visualadventures.com/climbing/...
Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Joined Oct 20, 2010
501 points
Dec 5, 2011
My navigator keeps me from getting lost
it's Ouray. Crag Dweller
From New York, NY
Joined Jul 17, 2006
274 points
Dec 5, 2011
Did any of you morons(in a playful friendly tone) think to email Jason and ask him? It's as least as difficult as posting this thread. mr.dobo
Joined Apr 8, 2008
1 points
Dec 5, 2011
I was dry tooling this morning when I woke up with morning wood. Sir Wanksalot
From County Jail
Joined Sep 29, 2011
14 points
Dec 5, 2011
The Beginning of Mr. Clean (5.8) at the Barkeater ...
If the rock is similar to everything else in Ouray then it's crappy rock that you wouldn't want to free climb anyways, as are most dry tooling areas. I know the photographer. I'll ask him next time I see him but in my experience I'm going to guess that's the reason people feel free to drytool. jmeizis
From Colorado Springs, CO
Joined Jul 30, 2008
305 points
Dec 5, 2011
Needles, SD
So if I am correct they trust the rock enough to bolt it, but not enough to weight it with hands and feet? Kevin O'Connor
From Jacksonville, AR
Joined Jun 18, 2009
250 points
Dec 5, 2011
Castle Wood Canyon, May '09
also consider the rock type and how it fractures, in my limited experience with dry tooling in Ouray the placements for picks and crampons are far smaller than those used for hand holds and feet, similarly some of the roofs bolted in those pictures in combination with the holds described might make for the first 5.16 so get after it folks i guess. Sam Feuerborn
From Durango, CO
Joined Aug 4, 2009
757 points
Dec 5, 2011
The Beginning of Mr. Clean (5.8) at the Barkeater ...
It'd be like climbing a road cut. You could do it but why. There's places where there can be bolts placed. I'm sure it's a pain to find them though. jmeizis
From Colorado Springs, CO
Joined Jul 30, 2008
305 points
Dec 5, 2011
Taken at MWV Icefest 2014.
When did this "dry tooling" grading start? D11 - seriously? What's the difference between dry tooling and crack jumaring with a cam? cjdrover
From Somerville, MA
Joined Feb 18, 2009
394 points
Administrator
Dec 5, 2011
Insurrection, 5.14c.  Photo Adam Sanders.
cjdrover wrote:
What's the difference between dry tooling and crack jumaring with a cam?


The difference is that crack jumaring is harder!
Monomaniac
From Morrison, CO
Joined Oct 26, 2006
17,263 points
Administrator
Dec 5, 2011
Insurrection, 5.14c.  Photo Adam Sanders.
jmeizis wrote:
It'd be like climbing a road cut. You could do it but why. There's places where there can be bolts placed. I'm sure it's a pain to find them though.


This crag is no more of a road cut than half of the developed cliffs at Rifle. The rock in the photos is certainly good enough to rock climb.
Monomaniac
From Morrison, CO
Joined Oct 26, 2006
17,263 points
Administrator
Dec 5, 2011
El Chorro
mr.dobo wrote:
Did any of you morons(in a playful friendly tone) think to email Jason and ask him? It's as least as difficult as posting this thread.


I guess I would have but I thought that I'd get an answer pretty fast. I was kind of surprised to see that so many other people were also confused. I wasn't trying to start a debate or anything, just honestly curious.

If the rock is of shitty quality then why would it be any more fun to climb on w/ tools than w/ your hands? And if the rock is of good quality but the features are too small to be climbed without tools... well, then that just sucks! Someone could climb it...
Ryan Williams
From London (sort of)
Joined May 10, 2009
1,468 points
Dec 5, 2011
Climber Drawing
Dry stooling?

a.k.a Shitting all over someone else's area
Tom Hanson
Joined Jan 1, 2001
1,125 points
Dec 5, 2011
For me, I drytool in places like Ouray or Vail, to gain experience and confidence for mixed (ice and rock) routes in committing environments (i.e. RMNP in winter). It is a form of aid, but for me, it is a type of aid that is more physically engaging than dangling in aiders. I do both for different reasons. Try it sometime if you want to understand it.
Drytooling definitely scars the rock, but it is worth noting that most drytooling crags are in places with chossy, dirty, and unattractive rock. The chossy nature of the rock produces many seams, cracks, and features that are amendable to crampons and tools. You could probably free climb in these places, but it rarely occurs, because the rock isn't generally enticing to people looking to put up new areas.
I would think that there is enough rock around to allow people to practice sport, trad, aid, drytooling, or whatever, without overly limiting each user group's experience.
k. riemondy
From Boulder, Co
Joined Oct 3, 2006
92 points
Dec 5, 2011
Taken at MWV Icefest 2014.
k. riemondy wrote:
For me, I drytool in places like Ouray or Vail, to gain experience and confidence for mixed (ice and rock) routes in committing environments (i.e. RMNP in winter).


Very fair - but do you climb 45 degree overhanging caves in RMNP in winter - wearing rock shoes? Of course not. Anyways mostly agree with you, the mixed lines I've done in NH are all total garbage outside of winter and no one seems to really care. I just don't understand the R&I coverage.
cjdrover
From Somerville, MA
Joined Feb 18, 2009
394 points
Dec 5, 2011
Buenos Dias!
I've just spent the last hour in a grueling effort to try, even a little bit, to care. And I have to be completely honest...






















I just don't.
-sp
From East-Coast
Joined May 25, 2007
80 points
Administrator
Dec 5, 2011
El Chorro
k. riemondy wrote:
For me, I drytool in places like Ouray or Vail, to gain experience and confidence for mixed (ice and rock) routes in committing environments (i.e. RMNP in winter). It is a form of aid, but for me, it is a type of aid that is more physically engaging than dangling in aiders. I do both for different reasons. Try it sometime if you want to understand it. Drytooling definitely scars the rock, but it is worth noting that most drytooling crags are in places with chossy, dirty, and unattractive rock. The chossy nature of the rock produces many seams, cracks, and features that are amendable to crampons and tools. You could probably free climb in these places, but it rarely occurs, because the rock isn't generally enticing to people looking to put up new areas. I would think that there is enough rock around to allow people to practice sport, trad, aid, drytooling, or whatever, without overly limiting each user group's experience.


I don't have any problem w/ dry-tooling... I just don't know that much about it. I imagine that I would like it.

But yea, this is what I was wondering. If it was just people making use of rock that would probably not be worth the effort otherwise. Sounds like that is usually the case.
Ryan Williams
From London (sort of)
Joined May 10, 2009
1,468 points
Dec 5, 2011
Young Good Free Face, 11b
What ever happened to leave no trace? Can someone please explain to me how dry-tooling follows this very simple guideline??
Please, I'm baffled.

And while it breaks my heart to see chalk I've left on a hold while climbing. In no way is that chalk a permanent reminder of my ascent. Remember when clean aid came into practice? Perhaps that's something we could relate this conversation to?
J. Broussard
From CordryCorner
Joined Feb 21, 2011
112 points
Dec 5, 2011
Rrrrr
it's a secret Buff Johnson
Joined Dec 19, 2005
1,499 points
Dec 5, 2011
Well at least they did it in some obscure cave and not on something like the Hallucinogen Wall.

@Jeffeos - Leave no trace? Thats funny. I'd say 80% of climbers could care less about the leave no trace ehtic. Look at any popular sport area. The place is covered with chalk, full of bolts, every start is packed out and void of vegitation and there are probably fixed or "project" draws all over the place.
Mut
Joined Oct 7, 2009
5 points


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