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Camp (Cassin) Xdream picks - Crap steel?

Original Post
cms829 · · NJ · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 90

So I use a pair of X-dreams. I love them.

In the past I have climbed extensively with Petzl Quarks, BD Cobra's, Camp Awax, Petzl Nomics, and BD Fusions. I think thats all....

So safe to say I have tried a lot of different picks. By and far the X-dream mixte and ice picks are the best I have climbed with thus far. However with that said has anyone noticed that they are also some of the softest steel you've ever climbed on??

When I first started climbing I had quarks. I beat those damn things into submission, not knowing what I was doing, swinging into thin ice and bottoming them out into the granite every swing. However - Those picks lasted me the life of the tools until I sold them. My fusions were awesome...They took a beating climbing mixed and the picks were good to go.

These picks on the xdreams are so soft I have to do a serious re sharpening after every weekend. And Im mindful of the thickness of ice and the rock underneath. I am not swinging into thin ice.

Jeffrey Dunn · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2007 · Points: 229

I don't think its that its much softer steel, as much as it is that there's so much less of it. That being said, the picks cost half the price of the petzl's so you can burn through them twice as fast at the same cost.

Also, even though you say you are not swinging into rock, the picks wouldn't be getting damaged unless you are.

Embrace the fact that picks are a finite commodity, a little filing (no need for perfect tips) isn't a real issue.

divnamite · · New York, NY · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 90

I don't know if it makes a difference, but the standard pick for X-Dream/All Mtn is B rated where Petzl Ice is T rated and same goes for Fusion. In fact, most of the latest model technical tools have T rated picks.

The OLD Quark's cascade pick, now that's a bomber pick, B rated but takes abuses like a champ.

cms829 · · NJ · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 90

good call Jeff. I realize that it is the rock that is damaging them. I was for sure on a ton of rock on cinema on sunday. Little taps into the thin stuff, and dry tooling. But I certainly wasn't swinging into it like back in the day when I first started with my quarks. Man I used to bash those things into thing ice (ROCK)...hard. Those picks were awesome, although I think those were aremet. Obviously not apples to apples.

I guess these are a lot thinner then the norm. So I guess I should just stop bitching and clean em up a bit after each outing. Was just seeing if anyone else had any similar issues.

PS - How have you been man? This is Chris from NJ. We went up to climb the dike a year or two ago, got rained out...and wound up on the Tablets at Willoughby. The day after I had a tooth pulled. Im sure you cant forget that. lol

cms829 · · NJ · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 90

Yea I think mine were cascade picks. Werent they made of Aermet steel? I wonder why no one uses it anymore? Availability, cost maybe?

Those things took one hell of a beating and came out swinging.

Jeffrey Dunn · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2007 · Points: 229

Hey brother! How could I forget! That was a sweet trip. Hope life is treating you well. I'm headed up to the dacks this weekend for the festival. Talk soon man.

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

Yes.

That's something I deal with. I would rather buy picks every year than climb with any other tool.

I'm sharpening my picks all the time too. It is what is..

cms829 · · NJ · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 90
Jeffrey Dunn wrote:Hey brother! How could I forget! That was a sweet trip. Hope life is treating you well. I'm headed up to the dacks this weekend for the festival. Talk soon man.
Man I was thinking about heading up but I would assume its gonna be crazy packed and I've got no where to stay. Was gonna head up to the whites instead since it wouldn't be as crowded but my normal partner cant make it.

Kirby - Glad to know Im not just dreaming. But I think Jeffs right. Thin steel will obviously take a bigger beating then thicker steel, everything else being equal. But I do still think that these are softer then your average pick. I mean, even when I am super super careful about it, they still look like theyve been through 5 days of climbing compared to a petzl or BD pick.

It is what it is. Guess I'll just be grabbing spares sooner rather then later. No biggie, considering the price point.
Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

CMS,

You're not tripping! I sharpen up the X Dream Mixte picks almost everyday. Sometimes it's from deperate swings on thin or mixed routes and sometimes it's not. I'm willing to deal with it in light of the outstanding performance of the X Dream. I can understand the concern but it's not enough to get me to switch tools. Although I don't mind spending $$. Hell, I own two sets of Bladerunners. I have one fitted to my Phantom guides and one to my Rebels.

Maybe I'll run into you if you decide to hit the Dacks this weekend.

Jon H · · PC, UT · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 118

Chris, the original Cascade picks were definitely NOT made of Aermet or any other exotic steel.

The only manufacturer that ever made Aermet picks in any quantity was BD and only for a short period in the late 90s. I've got 2 sets of Aermet picks and I'm definitely holding on to them (and I don't even own any BD tools right now).

And yes, I definitely find myself wanting to sharpen my X-Dreams a bit more than I ever wanted to sharpen BD picks. As said above, it's easy to justify when Cassin picks cost 40% less than Petzl/BD picks.

In other news though, I think I have to warranty one of my X-Dreams. The handle has come loose and audibly shakes on every swing. I've only got maybe 8-10 days on them and they were brand new for this season. I first noticed it on lead earlier this week in Ouray. There's no feeling like being 20' above your last screw on Pic O' The Vic and feeling your axe handle wobbling. BTW - it's absolutely nothing to do with the bolt coming loose - it's in the handle/shaft toothed interface.

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

Damn Jon, that sucks! I'll show your post to a camp guy this weekend.

Oh and next time no one wants to hear your whining.. You had one perfectly good tool to finish that route with. Maybe you need to work on your footwork. HAHA!

Brie Abram · · Celo, NC · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 493
divnamite wrote:I don't know if it makes a difference, but the standard pick for X-Dream/All Mtn is B rated where Petzl Ice is T rated and same goes for Fusion. In fact, most of the latest model technical tools have T rated picks. The OLD Quark's cascade pick, now that's a bomber pick, B rated but takes abuses like a champ.
The standard stock pick for the XDream, the Mixte pick, is T rated. In fact, all the current picks for the Xdream, the Mixte, Race, and even the Ice, are T rated.
divnamite · · New York, NY · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 90
Brian Abram wrote: The standard stock pick for the XDream, the Mixte pick, is T rated. In fact, all the current picks for the Xdream, the Mixte, Race, and even the Ice, are T rated.
Source?
Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492

The good news is that the more you file back the beak on the Cassin pick, the better it cleans from the ice. They are surely a bit "sticky" when new.

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
Gunkiemike wrote:The good news is that the more you file back the beak on the Cassin pick, the better it cleans from the ice. They are surely a bit "sticky" when new.
I file off the bird beak right after I tighten the new picks down... Unless I hire Ian Osteyee.
Brie Abram · · Celo, NC · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 493
divnamite wrote: Source?
The photo posted by Bill shows the Mixte pick. I bought the replacement Ice picks, but I sent them back. I expected them to be a bit thinner, B rated, and less aggressive. The Ice picks are actually very slightly thicker and more downturned than the Mixte picks.

You can read about the picks on page 5 of this PDF from CAMP:
camp.it/mailinglist/01_camp…

"Compared with the Mixte and Race picks, the tip of the ice pick is also situated 6
mm closer to the handle"

I have no idea why, even though it mentions making the Ice pick swing more like an All Mountain.

Regarding the thickness:

"The Mixte pick weighs 120 grams, with the thickness gradually increasing from 3 to 4 mm, 10 cm from the tip."

"the [Ice] pick gradually widens from 3 to 4 mm, 8 cm back from the tip of the pick."

So the Mixte pick tapers to full thickness gradually over 10cm, and the Ice pick tapers more quickly over just 8 cm. The Ice pick is thus a bit beefier. You can see it if you look at both picks side by side.

The Race picks are tapered even less, though I haven't held one myself:

"At just 4 cm from the tip, the cross-section of the Race pick widens from 3 mm to 4 mm."

I'll confirm that the Ice picks are indeed stamped "T".

Here is a photo from thealpinestart (Raf) with the Ice pick lying on top of a Mixte pick:

thealpinestart.com/2014/03/…
Noah Haber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 78

I'll go ahead an add my experience to this, and wholeheartedly agree with the OP. The picks are very, very soft. WAY softer than equivalent BD and Petzl picks. I had a couple light taps on rock this weekend that would barely have registered on my BD picks (lasers), but totally blunted the ends of the x-dreams mixte picks. The steel is, indeed, crap.

They might be cheaper, but probably are not more cost-effective in terms of sharp sticks per dollar. If the tips blunt on my first few pitches a weekend, that means I'm going to spend a lot more time climbing on blunt tips before I can sharpen them, and I'll have to sharpen them way more. I'd rather pay a bit more for harder steel and enjoy sharper tools.

That's a shame, since the tools are otherwise ridiculously nice.

Jon H · · PC, UT · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 118

Anybody have access to a Rockwell tester? If we can find people with retired BD, Petzl, Cassin, and Grivel picks, I will happily donate $22 to cover everyone's shipping costs (USPS Priority flat rate envelope $5.50 x 4) to get the picks tested.

I'm quite curious as to the relative hardness of each company's steel.

Dobson · · Butte, MT · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 215

I think I could get them tested when I send out a batch of blades to get heat treated. The company that does my HT is very good. I bet they would only charge a few extra bucks to test some picks. Worth it in my opinion.

Noah Haber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 78

Awesome! I could probably find a retired BD and / or Petzl pick or two if I ask around. Can't help with the Grivel or Camp ones.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Ice Climbing
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