Cam Placement Question

Any of you folks ever placed a camalot as 'passive' protection?

I'm just curious.

I have, and BD says it's OK if done properly.

Yep, there was an instance where a very large nut or hex would have been a good placement. I didn't have either, so a #1 camalot fit perfectly as passive pro.

Sure. All the time actually. Fully retracted cams placed like nuts feel like the most bomber placements of all to me. It helps to let your second know how the cam was placed so it can be easily cleaned. I don't think that you're supposed to place 'open' cams as passive pro though.

On occasion, but I don’t like to. The main problem is that the placements are usually very wobbly, and I don’t trust them unless they are very well keyed in.

The double-axel design of Camalots prevents the cams from inverting so they are stable at full extension. Modern single-axel camming units (but not old units) have cam stops which “in theory” prevent the cams from inverting. However, I don’t have a lot of confidence that they’ll work in practice due to play and possible deformations of the cams with moderate to high loads at odd angles typical of true placements. Some unites seem to be better than others.

I'm pretty sure the C3s cannot be used as passive pro(I know at least the very small ones can't).

As far as I know, the double-axle C4s are the ONLY cams on the market that can be placed totally tipped out as passive pro. The camstops on all other brands of cam are not really rated to hold large loads. Anyone else remember the thread from last year about Mastercam camstops shearing off?

Daniel Winder wrote: I don't think that you're supposed to place 'open' cams as passive pro though.

BD Camalots can be placed as passive in the open position for sure. I suspect DMM dragons could be too because of the similar design but I dont know if they approve it. The larger metolius such as fat cams have beefy stops for this reason. Not sure of the rated strength though.

Toby B wrote:As far as I know, the double-axle C4s are the ONLY cams on the market that can be placed totally tipped out as passive pro. The camstops on all other brands of cam are not really rated to hold large loads. Anyone else remember the thread from last year about Mastercam camstops shearing off?

No almost all new manufactured cams can be placed in a passive setting, excluding the few that still use pins for a cam stop. Even the metolious tcu's can be placed passively, just another advantage over the c3.

Daniel Winder wrote:Sure. All the time actually. Fully retracted cams placed like nuts feel like the most bomber placements of all to me. It helps to let your second know how the cam was placed so it can be easily cleaned. I don't think that you're supposed to place 'open' cams as passive pro though.

maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying, but this sounds a lot like a regular cam placement, just overcam'd

steitz wrote: maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying, but this sounds a lot like a regular cam placement, just overcam'd

Agreed. Perhaps he fully retracts to fit in a constriction not necessarily parallel sided. In this case the piece may be camming and choking. Wow. let er whip.

Daniel Winder wrote:Sure. All the time actually. Fully retracted cams placed like nuts feel like the most bomber placements of all to me. It helps to let your second know how the cam was placed so it can be easily cleaned. I don't think that you're supposed to place 'open' cams as passive pro though.

Not what we are talking about but thanks for playing.

Toby B wrote:As far as I know, the double-axle C4s are the ONLY cams on the market that can be placed totally tipped out as passive pro.

All of DMM cams have ratings for passive placement, most at 10kN or more.

Wild Country's bigger cams (not the Zeros) have "full strength cam stops" but they don't list a rating for them.

John Wilder wrote: BD, on the other hand, does actually show a passive placement of a camalot as a kosher way of using the cam.

Actually DMM, Wild Country, and Metoulious (just the brands I own) all show in there pamphlets that passive is ok and full strength.

Daniel Winder wrote:Sure. All the time actually. Fully retracted cams placed like nuts feel like the most bomber placements of all to me. It helps to let your second know how the cam was placed so it can be easily cleaned. I don't think that you're supposed to place 'open' cams as passive pro though.

I normally just call that getting a cam stuck.

Cole Phinney wrote: Actually DMM, Wild Country, and Metoulious (just the brands I own) all show in there pamphlets that passive is ok and full strength.

No they don't say it's ok...

metoliusclimbing.com/pdf/ca…
dmmclimbing.com/instruction…

yes the DMM guide shows a picture of the Dragon in that configuration.

And Wild Country does actually show them being used that way

But do you really want to trust your life to those little protrusions of metal? I'm not going to dig it up but I remember someone posting about how their cam stops on the smaller master cams came off.

Toby B wrote:As far as I know, the double-axle C4s are the ONLY cams on the market that can be placed totally tipped out as passive pro.

The Splitter (now Trango) cams are full strength when wide open IIRC. They don't need cam stops since the lobes don't (can't) pass each other.

why not place a nut as a nut and a cam as a cam? oh right, this is mountainproject...

Keenan Waeschle wrote:why not place a nut as a nut and a cam as a cam? oh right, this is mountainproject...

You dont get out much do you.

Toby B wrote:As far as I know, the double-axle C4s are the ONLY cams on the market that can be placed totally tipped out as passive pro. The camstops on all other brands of cam are not really rated to hold large loads. Anyone else remember the thread from last year about Mastercam camstops shearing off?

But Toby, I passively place my aliens all the time. Bomber.

use a nut ...