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Cam Placement Question
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By Brian Hestetune
From Logan, UT
Apr 15, 2012
Any of you folks ever placed a camalot as 'passive' protection?

I'm just curious.

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By Gary N
From Durango, CO
Apr 15, 2012
Profile pic taken at Muir Beach.
I have, and BD says it's OK if done properly.

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By Robert Buswold
From Longmont, CO
Apr 15, 2012
Clear Creek Canyon, Capitalist Crag
Yep, there was an instance where a very large nut or hex would have been a good placement. I didn't have either, so a #1 camalot fit perfectly as passive pro.

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By Daniel Winder
Apr 15, 2012
Sure. All the time actually. Fully retracted cams placed like nuts feel like the most bomber placements of all to me. It helps to let your second know how the cam was placed so it can be easily cleaned. I don't think that you're supposed to place 'open' cams as passive pro though.

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By Kent Pease
From Littleton, Colorado
Apr 15, 2012
On occasion, but I don’t like to. The main problem is that the placements are usually very wobbly, and I don’t trust them unless they are very well keyed in.

The double-axel design of Camalots prevents the cams from inverting so they are stable at full extension. Modern single-axel camming units (but not old units) have cam stops which “in theory” prevent the cams from inverting. However, I don’t have a lot of confidence that they’ll work in practice due to play and possible deformations of the cams with moderate to high loads at odd angles typical of true placements. Some unites seem to be better than others.

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By Simon Thompson
From New Paltz, NY
Apr 15, 2012
I'm pretty sure the C3s cannot be used as passive pro(I know at least the very small ones can't).

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By Toby Butterfield
From Portland, OR
Apr 15, 2012
Fear and Loathing.
As far as I know, the double-axle C4s are the ONLY cams on the market that can be placed totally tipped out as passive pro. The camstops on all other brands of cam are not really rated to hold large loads. Anyone else remember the thread from last year about Mastercam camstops shearing off?

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By Greg D
From Here
Apr 15, 2012
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W.
Daniel Winder wrote:
I don't think that you're supposed to place 'open' cams as passive pro though.


BD Camalots can be placed as passive in the open position for sure. I suspect DMM dragons could be too because of the similar design but I dont know if they approve it. The larger metolius such as fat cams have beefy stops for this reason. Not sure of the rated strength though.

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By Cole Phinney
From Sheridan, Wy
Apr 15, 2012
Toby B wrote:
As far as I know, the double-axle C4s are the ONLY cams on the market that can be placed totally tipped out as passive pro. The camstops on all other brands of cam are not really rated to hold large loads. Anyone else remember the thread from last year about Mastercam camstops shearing off?


No almost all new manufactured cams can be placed in a passive setting, excluding the few that still use pins for a cam stop. Even the metolious tcu's can be placed passively, just another advantage over the c3.

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By Jonathan Steitzer
From midcoast, maine
Apr 15, 2012
Daniel Winder wrote:
Sure. All the time actually. Fully retracted cams placed like nuts feel like the most bomber placements of all to me. It helps to let your second know how the cam was placed so it can be easily cleaned. I don't think that you're supposed to place 'open' cams as passive pro though.


maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying, but this sounds a lot like a regular cam placement, just overcam'd

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By Greg D
From Here
Apr 15, 2012
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W.
steitz wrote:
maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying, but this sounds a lot like a regular cam placement, just overcam'd


Agreed. Perhaps he fully retracts to fit in a constriction not necessarily parallel sided. In this case the piece may be camming and choking. Wow. let er whip.

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By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Apr 15, 2012
Cole Phinney wrote:
No almost all new manufactured cams can be placed in a passive setting, excluding the few that still use pins for a cam stop. Even the metolious tcu's can be placed passively, just another advantage over the c3.


This is not true. Those cam stops are not really meant for full passive placement, and none of the manufacturers who use them to my knowledge would ever recommend you placing the cam in a passive, open placement. (note the case of the cam stops on the small master cams shearing off)

BD, on the other hand, does actually show a passive placement of a camalot as a kosher way of using the cam. (I dont know if DMM does this, but I would use the cam that way if necessary).

I've placed a camalot in a passive placement once in my 10 years of leading, fwiw. Didnt test it, but was glad to have it.

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By DexterRutecki
From Cincinnati, Ohio
Apr 15, 2012
Daniel Winder wrote:
Sure. All the time actually. Fully retracted cams placed like nuts feel like the most bomber placements of all to me. It helps to let your second know how the cam was placed so it can be easily cleaned. I don't think that you're supposed to place 'open' cams as passive pro though.


Not what we are talking about but thanks for playing.

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By Allen Corneau
From Houston, TX
Apr 15, 2012
Toby B wrote:
As far as I know, the double-axle C4s are the ONLY cams on the market that can be placed totally tipped out as passive pro.



All of DMM cams have ratings for passive placement, most at 10kN or more.

Wild Country's bigger cams (not the Zeros) have "full strength cam stops" but they don't list a rating for them.

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By Cole Phinney
From Sheridan, Wy
Apr 15, 2012
John Wilder wrote:
BD, on the other hand, does actually show a passive placement of a camalot as a kosher way of using the cam.


Actually DMM, Wild Country, and Metoulious (just the brands I own) all show in there pamphlets that passive is ok and full strength.

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By Finn the Human
From The Land of Ooo
Apr 15, 2012
Mathematical!
Daniel Winder wrote:
Sure. All the time actually. Fully retracted cams placed like nuts feel like the most bomber placements of all to me. It helps to let your second know how the cam was placed so it can be easily cleaned. I don't think that you're supposed to place 'open' cams as passive pro though.


I normally just call that getting a cam stuck.

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By NorCalNomad
From San Francisco
Apr 15, 2012
Cole Phinney wrote:
Actually DMM, Wild Country, and Metoulious (just the brands I own) all show in there pamphlets that passive is ok and full strength.


No they don't say it's ok...

metoliusclimbing.com/pdf/cam-m...
dmmclimbing.com/instructions/C...

yes the DMM guide shows a picture of the Dragon in that configuration.

And Wild Country does actually show them being used that way

But do you really want to trust your life to those little protrusions of metal? I'm not going to dig it up but I remember someone posting about how their cam stops on the smaller master cams came off.

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By Gunkiemike
Apr 15, 2012
Toby B wrote:
As far as I know, the double-axle C4s are the ONLY cams on the market that can be placed totally tipped out as passive pro.


The Splitter (now Trango) cams are full strength when wide open IIRC. They don't need cam stops since the lobes don't (can't) pass each other.

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By Keenan Waeschle
From Bozeman, MT
Apr 15, 2012
on top of the RNWF June 2012
why not place a nut as a nut and a cam as a cam? oh right, this is mountainproject...

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By Greg D
From Here
Apr 15, 2012
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W.
Keenan Waeschle wrote:
why not place a nut as a nut and a cam as a cam? oh right, this is mountainproject...


You dont get out much do you.

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By Matt Sedor
From portland, or
Apr 15, 2012
mmmmmmonkey
Toby B wrote:
As far as I know, the double-axle C4s are the ONLY cams on the market that can be placed totally tipped out as passive pro. The camstops on all other brands of cam are not really rated to hold large loads. Anyone else remember the thread from last year about Mastercam camstops shearing off?


But Toby, I passively place my aliens all the time. Bomber.

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By bearbreeder
Apr 16, 2012
use a nut ...

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By wankel7
From Indiana
Apr 17, 2012
Anybody care to post pictures of using BD cams as passive pro?

I've never done it and only seen the illustration in the instruction pamphlet.

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By Brian Hudson
From Lenoir, NC
Mar 4, 2013
Valor Over Discretion (5.8), RRG
Digging up an old thread, but today I placed a .3 C4 passive in a good slot it was perfect for. It was narrow on the face and abruptly widened on the inside (like a T-shaped slot) with a nice ledge for the cam to rest on.

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By joshf
From missoula, mt
Mar 4, 2013
Me
Tony B is right as far as I've heard...I know that metolius/dmm/wild country have put cam stops on some designs, but BD is the only cam to actually have an axle to compensate for the load. I've seen camalots placed passively and while other issues, such as an unstable placement etc can come up, the design empirically makes sense. I would be very curious to see how cam stops AND camalot designs function in real world settings...who has taken a whip on a passively placed cam...cam stops or axle?

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By patto
Mar 4, 2013
joshf wrote:
Tony B is right as far as I've heard...I know that metolius/dmm/wild country have put cam stops on some designs, but BD is the only cam to actually have an axle to compensate for the load.


How does an axle "compensate for the load"!???? That doesn't even make sense.

Regardless if you pick you cams based on the ability to hold passively then you should stick to bolts. Double axles are great for the improved range, passive strength is a mere side effect.

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