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By Princess Mia
From Vail
Oct 16, 2012
Chillin' at City of Rocks

Scott McMahon wrote:
All in a sweet Osprey pack. :o)


.........while on a hot date climbing a sketchy 5.6........

:-D


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By Medic741
From Pittsford, New York
Oct 17, 2012
When I was a bum at Frey

Dumb. Sling the trigger and yank. Bam I just saved $110. Just dumb.


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By Siberia
From Birmingham, AL
Oct 17, 2012

Just carry a second nut tool if you're that worried about it, or have your belayer send one down the rope. Plug another solid piece and hang from it. Use a nut tool in each hand to do the same thing.


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By Julius Beres
From Boulder, CO
Oct 17, 2012
Rewritten

The economics of this don't make any sense.

You are asking for $110 + $7 shipping for this device.
If you wait for them to go on sale, Black Diamond C4s are almost always available at <$45 including shipping for a new cam (I've gotten many under $40... I am assuming people aren't getting #6 cams stuck because they cannot reach the trigger). That means that you would need to be able to retrieve at least 3 NEW cams that you could not otherwise retrieve without this tool (ie, using a nut tool, using slings or nut wires around the trigger, etc.). Since most cams that get stuck aren't brand new, really you would probably need to retrieve 4 or 5 stuck cams before you are even at break even.

Not to mention you have to carry around another device on your harness that doesn't have any other use.
I would recommend learning how to remove cams with the tools on hand (nut tool, slings, nut wires). In the rare case that the cam is truly stuck, leave it and go buy a shiny new one, and you will still be well ahead.

(Oh, and god forbid the cheap looking strap on that tool breaks... it looks like it is the only way to attach it to your harness... and if you drop it, you are out the equivalent of 3 cams!)


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By nbrown
From western NC
Oct 17, 2012
Top of Shortoff with the Bonsai

I still have an old leeper "friend of a friend" that was occasionally used for reachy aid placements. And yes, it works for more than just friends. Would be happy to part with it for a mere 110 bucks...


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By Theriault
From Oromocto NB Canada
Oct 17, 2012
Ziggy Piggy, Welsford NB

buy 2 and get a free set of "Hand Jammies" lol


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By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Oct 17, 2012
OTL

Be honest - this was like a senior school project, right? And now you're trying to sell it?


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By Ben Sachs
Oct 17, 2012

I can think of one user group who might use this. I'm thinking of the old crustys who solo all the routes on the Wind Tower about 30 minutes before dark on Sunday evening. These people are not there for the climbing, they are there to booty gear left by gumbies for a profit. I could see the benefit of this device if you are soloing and can only take one hand off the rock. Still, I could only imagine that crowd paying maybe $15 max, else they would hurt their booty profit margin.


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By Sonoran Climbing Gear
Oct 17, 2012

Let me address Julius' earlier comment... Unfortunately getting premium products machined in the United States isn't cheap. We did everything we could to get the price down and at $110 we were aware it would be an issue that would be raised. The highest quality materials were used and it's built to last. With that in mind, let me break down the "economics." Take that device to Indian Creek one weekend Julius. The first half of the morning you'll rescue enough cams to pay for the cam-extractor. The remaining day and a half you'll most likely rescue enough cams to pay for your trip and provide you with lunch money (depending on where you enjoy dining out) for the following week. That's ONE weekend. We all lose A cam at some point, multiply that times the thousands and thousands of climbers out there and it adds up to A LOT of lost cams out there : )


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By Jason N.
From Grand Junction
Oct 17, 2012
Indy pass

Sonoran Climbing Gear wrote:
Let me address Julius' earlier comment... Unfortunately getting premium products machined in the United States isn't cheap. We did everything we could to get the price down and at $110 we were aware it would be an issue that would be raised. The highest quality materials were used and it's built to last. With that in mind, let me break down the "economics." Take that device to Indian Creek one weekend Julius. The first half of the morning you'll rescue enough cams to pay for the cam-extractor. The remaining day and a half you'll most likely rescue enough cams to pay for your trip and provide you with lunch money (depending on where you enjoy dining out) for the following week. That's ONE weekend. We all lose A cam at some point, multiply that times the thousands and thousands of climbers out there and it adds up to A LOT of lost cams out there : )


Perhaps more market research was warranted before this went into production then. As an informal poll, how many people have had to ditch a cam because it walked too deep? By the responses in this thread it doesn't seem like many, and even if they have maybe just one or two. The economics simply won't pan out for the individual. Maybe a group of climbing friends could go in on one or something, but I doubt it.


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By Jeff Kent
From Sedona, Az
Oct 17, 2012

I have been climbing for twenty years. In that time, I have left one cam behind, as a bail piece.


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By Brendan Blanchard
From Strafford, NH
Oct 17, 2012
Obi Wan Ryobi - Darth Vader Crag, Rumney NH

I read all of this thread on accident. Can I get my 10 minutes back?


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By VerticalUrge
Oct 17, 2012

interesting idea.

i'd keep my $$ though and enjoy the memories and future opportunities of the double nut tool/lassoing/taping nut tools to sticks/peeing strategies that i've perfected over the years


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By J Q
Oct 17, 2012
Me again!

All I can say is wow, that sense of community is finally coming back to MP. I'll take three. One to train my dog, one to train my partner, and one to train my wife. Who doesn't have $300 to spend on random shit? I once bought break dancing pants!


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By Darren Mabe
From Flagstaff, AZ
Oct 17, 2012
wham bam hand jam. Wrapping up the final moves of Twist of Fate, Oak Creek Canyon. <br /> <br />photo: Blake McCord

Sonoran Climbing Gear wrote:
Take that device to Indian Creek one weekend Julius. The first half of the morning you'll rescue enough cams to pay for the cam-extractor. The remaining day and a half you'll most likely rescue enough cams to pay for your trip and provide you with lunch money (depending on where you enjoy dining out) for the following week. That's ONE weekend. We all lose A cam at some point, multiply that times the thousands and thousands of climbers out there and it adds up to A LOT of lost cams out there : )

are there that many stuck cams in indian creek? i must be getting on the wrong routes.


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By Jeff Kent
From Sedona, Az
Oct 17, 2012

Darren Mabe wrote:
are there that many stuck cams in indian creek? i must be getting on the wrong routes.


He was thinking Potash.


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By Keenan Waeschle
From Bozeman, MT
Oct 17, 2012
on top of the RNWF <br />June 2012

Sonoran, have you actually sold any of these things? How'd you fund this project? who invested in it?

The number of out of reach cams I've seen over 10 years of climbing I can count on one hand. In my experience most stuck cams are small (purple TCUs in particular), close to the surface, and absolutely welded. They stay stuck for year after year because the only way to get them out would be a sawzal.


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By James Otey
From NH
Oct 17, 2012
Urban Surfer, Rumney. <br /> <br />Photo by Lee Hansche

This is the best joke ever!

Well, I hope it's a joke...


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By Ray Pinpillage
From West Egg
Oct 17, 2012
Cleo's Needle

Brendan Blanchard wrote:
I read all of this thread on accident. Can I get my 10 minutes back?


All returns are subject to a 20% restock fee. Sorry.


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By Tom Mulholland
From #1 Cheese Producing State!
Oct 17, 2012
Whiskey-a-Go-Go

Jeff Kent wrote:
I have been climbing for twenty years. In that time, I have left one cam behind, as a bail piece.


Haven't lost a cam in 5 years of climbing (knock on wood), and the majority of stuck cams I've seen...they aren't going anywhere. With or without that tool.


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By flynn
Oct 17, 2012

Wow, I'm not the only person in the universe who still owns a Friend of a Friend! Though it was designed to extract rigid-shafted Friends, since they were all that existed then, it does indeed work very well on flexible SLCDs, too. At $25 (plus being a gift, anyway), it's paid for itself many times over, mostly in the hands of inexperienced seconds. Always amazes me when people ask what that gizmo is that's hanging on my harness; amazes me more that something so-o-o functional went out of production.


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By Cor
Oct 17, 2012
black nasty

cam extractor $110.
#5 bd camalot $110.

hmm....
i guess it could be good for the big guy who can't get into the
off-width deep enough, at where his skinny friend placed the #5.


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By Medic741
From Pittsford, New York
Oct 17, 2012
When I was a bum at Frey

So you're advocating being a dick. Cool!


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By Julius Beres
From Boulder, CO
Oct 18, 2012
Rewritten

Sonoran Climbing Gear wrote:
With that in mind, let me break down the "economics." Take that device to Indian Creek one weekend Julius. The first half of the morning you'll rescue enough cams to pay for the cam-extractor. The remaining day and a half you'll most likely rescue enough cams to pay for your trip and provide you with lunch money (depending on where you enjoy dining out)


See, the problem is, I just don't believe you. I've been to the Creek. I don't see how I'm going to retrieve 5+ cams in one morning, even assuming every stuck cam I saw could be retrieved with this tool. There just aren't that many stuck cams. Paying for the extractor, my trip, and lunch.. hmm... maybe that would be 15 cams? In one weekend? (and that isn't even taking into account that most cams you would rescue at the creek are old and would need new slings and probably aren't worth much).
And, if this tool works as well as you claim, wouldn't the first person bringing one to the Creek extract most of the booty, removing the incentive for everyone else to get such a device?

Also, I'm not exactly clear on how you carry one. The larger size is 30" (2.5 feet). Presumably you clip it by the loop to a carabiner to your harness. At that length, it would be down by your feet. It seems like something you would only want to carry if you knew there was a stuck cam on a route that needed it (ie, you would not just carry this on a multi-pitch route "just in case")

Good for you for taking the initiative and starting a business. I'm not trying to be rude. But I simply do not believe the economics makes sense. This is an "insurance" device to protect against a very rare event (cam loss) and the insurance costs much more than the risk.

I think if you sold a similar device for under $25 that was smaller and easier to carry(yes, you couldn't get a cam 2 feet inside a crack, but most cams aren't that far back) then maybe it would be worth something.
If I'm going to haul a 3 foot device up a route to get a cam, I may as well bring up some tools and a coat hanger, etc.


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By Julius Beres
From Boulder, CO
Oct 18, 2012
Rewritten

Matt N wrote:
Be honest - this was like a senior school project, right? And now you're trying to sell it?


The funny thing is, several months ago a student posted on here that they wanted a project for an engineering class. I suggested building a cam extractor, and someone mentioned that the "friend of a friend" already existed. This looks like a decent attempt to make a new version of that, and if it was someone's school project, then good for them. Nothing wrong with the basic idea (although carrying this device seems impractical). But from a marketing perspective, I just don't see many sales at $117.

Maybe I am wrong.... but 90+% of stuck cams I have seen have not been perfectly placed cams that just happen to be out of reach like the demo on their website shows. Most cams that are stuck are overcammed and have other issues. Sure, extending the trigger might help, but I seriously doubt you will be bootying cams by the dozen.


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