Cam Brands

So I've been looking to expand my cam rack, mostly for getting ready to try some splitters at Indian Creek sometime in the future. I have posted some other stuff about this, and got some valued info, and have read some other forums on who likes what gear, and I guess what I'm after is why do people like this cam over that cam?

I have 90% Camalots, older camalots, which have never had an issue with, and a few TCU's, which honestly have never used much because I will use nuts or hexes, and a couple of WC's, which in comparison to the rest of the rack are choppy feeling when you work the action, really like the smooth pull on the Black Diamonds. After reading some of the forums on here, I am really interested in DMM Dragon and Demon Cams, yet after chatting with a very experienced climber a few minutes ago, I have doubts. He didn't like them because they have smaller surface area on the lobes than BD, and he hated how the slings on the DMMs are, likes the eye.

So I guess what I would like is some insight from all on why they use what they use to help narrow down the decision. Price isn't a big deal to me, but quality is, and thats why I would love some honest opinions.

DMM makes some of the highest quality products there are imo.

While ive never used the demons... and dont plan on it.. just not a fan of their look.. I own 2 drag cams and they are fantastic.

That being said 95% of my rack is BD -- cam wise anyways

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the demon's copies of the WC technical friends? Using even the same color scheme? Except the weird sling.
Same for the dragons, which are camalot's with the weird sling, same color scheme too no?
You could debate that the less surface area on the rock is better, as it applies the same force on less surface making it stick harder.

The DMM Dragons are really nice pieces except for that damn sling. IMO It's not long enough to be very useful, the bar tack jams if you hook the wrong loop, and there's no way that skinny dyneema lasts as long as a big fat nylon sling.
I really like my Mastercams but I only have them up to the red, apparently the larger pieces are floppy.
Totem Cams are really sweet. If you can find somewhere to buy them...
And then of course you've got C4s which are a bit heavy but bomber and smooth.

Can't go wrong with master cams up to 4 (red) and camalots for the rest.

I dont think you can go wrong with the DMM Dragons. I own two complete sets (and use them); I have also used BD's. I don't like Bd C4s; I know they are the standard…

The extendable slings work great for me; that little bit of extension really seems to minimize any drag that might cause the cam to walk.

Plus, I think the DMMs have better workmanship.

Trevor. wrote:Totem Cams are really sweet. If you can find somewhere to buy them.

Is there anywhere to buy them besides from manufacturer?

+1 for Mastercams. I carry a full set in addition to C4s, they super easy to place and its nice to fill sizes around the BDs. I really like and use the 5&6, and have no sign of floppy stems after 6 months of climbing ~3 days a week.

Ive placed and fallen on my friend's Dragons and they place really similar to the BD, held each fall, but I can't stand the slings. Too complicated = messy and the length of the sling hasn't ever been useful. BDs in comparison are simple and clean.

Can't go wrong with master cams up to 4 (red) and camalots for the rest.

BD for sure, and smaller offset mastercams

Love my dragoncams. I think the type of climbing you do should be considered when choosing them, however. Aid climbing? C4s have the edge with the thumb loop for higher clip-in point. Alpine climbing? I love the dragons. I believe they are slightly lighter, but they also allow you to often skip adding a draw if you extend them out. (even lighter for the total system) Of course, this doesn't pertain to an extremely wandery route, but the moderate extension they allow is really handy for many clips. Workmanship is fantastic as well.

Trevor. wrote:The DMM Dragons are really nice pieces except for that damn sling. IMO It's not long enough to be very useful, the bar tack jams if you hook the wrong loop, and there's no way that skinny dyneema lasts as long as a big fat nylon sling.

the slings can be replaced with thin tech cord with the same extendible setup yourself after a few years ... something you can do yourself

the lengths are longer on the larger sizes relative to the camalots than in the smaller ones ... the photo below shows this

also there are other considerations

-the dyneema sling is much less stiff than the camalot ... this lessens the chance of the rope movement transmitting the upward pull to the cam itself when climbing above

-when extending with the sling rather than a quickdraw there is one less failure point ... we all know that biners can get loaded in funny ways and opened against features ...

-extending with the sling also takes up less of your foot holds in vertical cracks ... if you climb vertical cracks alot youll often encounter the biners of the extending draw taking up that foot jam or even wedging itself in there ... with one biner in the system rather than 2 theres less chance ...

- for hard redpoints i pre-rack the dragons extended .. its less bulkier racking them with draws attached and easier to place ... you can always rack the key pieces on your chest if you are worried about them getting in the way

- in cracks its not unknown for biners to be loaded against the edge when extended, this is not a good thing ... the dragon offer the possibility of extending it or keeping it shortened, 2 lengths to prevent the scenario ... a normal cam cant, the sling length is fixed

- the cam angle is the classic 13.75 rather the 14.5 of the camalots ... might matter to some folks on limestone

length comparison

theres certain downsides

- no thumb loop

- the slings may not be the easiest to replace if you dont live in the UK ... but then tech cord will work ... it just wont look pretty or shiny, but you can do it yourself

- the trigger wire kits may not be easily available ... but any decent shop should be able to repair the triggers

- they cost more

for people who care they ware made in wales not china ... and the quality is quite good

i use mine all the time and i find they save on short draws .... you still bring the longer slings of course

what the dragons allow you to do is extend the placement at no weight cost where you wouldnt normally ... and save on a shorter draw where you would use one

which IMO is quite important considering the recent "failure" (well user error) of cams from walking on straight up cracks .... its up to 4 pulled X4s now?

;)

^ +1

Dragons rule, dont bother with demons except the number 4 which is a really great size.

Why is everyone not liking the demons?

For one thing the Dragons are the best of the two by a good bit due to the increased range, and as I have doubles in many sizes, and dragons have a different color system, it makes things a lot simpler to have one color for each size. The demons arent that much cheaper anyway.

In the small sizes especially the extra range of the dragons is much better and there are other brands that make super nice small pieces that have significant advantages, in my case the Metolius TCU (much narrower heads). WC Zeros are an excellent option in the two smallest demon sizes if you want to keep the size/color matching that DMM and WC share across cams and nuts.

Problem with demons is they will be damn hard to tell apart at first glance from a same size/color dragon (thinking 3,4,5 dragons) as the stem and slings are identical. Might also be possible to get confused between sizes with similar colors.

My hunch is the Demons were made for folks who like the old version of WC technical friends but not the WC heliums, but wanted the stem thumb piece and extendable sling upgrade. Keep in mind DMM had been making all sorts of WC stuff before Salewa purchased WC, so it probably made $$$ sense for DMM to come out with these as they had the dies and probably parts lying around anyway from existing Dragon and tech friend production. Just a guess on my part.

That being said the #4 demon is an absolute money size!!!! It roughly covers the old 3.5 camalot and bridges the slight gap between dragon 5 & 6 (camalots 3& 4). It also allows one to bring something bigger than the 5 dragon without having the bulk and weight of the 6 dragon.

Posting this point separately as it may be the biggest practical reason:

Most potential partners here in the US use Camalots, so they are probably in my experience going to be confused by or bitch about the sizing/color differences with the demon.

With these camalot users, have found they like the size/color match with dragons, and once you explain the extendo slings (you would be surprised how many folks cant figure those out) they really like the weight/clutter savings of fewer draws.