busting through sticking points in hangboard progression (in ONE grip)

What would your strategy be when you hit a wall in your hangboard progression with ONE grip (in this case it is full crimp). I am progressing in all the other grips I do (4 finger open, 2 finger middle team pocket, two finger front team pocket) but the close grip I feel maxed out when I recently added 5lb more. I could hang for 8 seconds for 8 reps with previous weight but when adding 5lb I can barely do 5 seconds and now have repeated the same performance for 2 workouts. Like I said all other grips are progressing nicely each workout - this is the only one that is stuck. This is only my fifth hangboard workout this "cycle" and since I am making such great progression with other grips I think stopping hangboarding and transitioning to something different is not the solution.

My diet/nutrition is pretty on par. I am maintaining weight with a diet of mainly unprocessed food high in protein so I am pretty sure its not a caloric intake issue. Also I sleep pretty regularly 8 hours and I take 48 hours off anything finger related after hangboarding (usually only do cycling or something on the off days after a hangboarding session until I climb outdoors again after 48 hours or I do another hangboard session).

My options as I see them:
1) reset weight on closed crimp and try to progress back through the sticking point (this has worked before with weight lifting in the past)

2) stick with the plateau and try really hard to gain hanging time

3) reset weight and try a different progression strategy (instead of adding weight this time try to add reps or time past my usual 8 reps of 8 second repeaters - this could look like progressing to 12 reps of 8 seconds or 8 reps of 12 seconds or something like that to add intensity instead of increasing weight).

4) Your alternative idea???

Thanks for your insight!

Another idea is just to change the sequence in which you exercise the different grips.

Since several of those grips share the same muscles (FDP, FDS, and whatever the names of those which activate the metacarpal), you might be incresing the total training stress for the full workout on each muscle, even though the proportional contributions of each different grip to that stress was uneven and varied from one day to another.

Ken

Another possible perspective:
Presumably for each person (and each hand?) there's a "theoretical" optimal proportion between the isometric strength/endurance of the half-crimp grip and the open grip.

Like for some people their half-crimp would be 10% stronger than their open grip, for others it would be only 5%.

Depends on relative lengths of finger bones, slight differences in tendon pulley sizes and positions. Also old scar tissue. Also slight differences in angles of each finger's grasp set by the neuro-muscular control system.
Both grips use the same muscles, just in different proportions, so the it's these subtle factors above that account for the difference in strength/endurance.

But the crimp/open percentage could change over time for the same person same hand. Like for me the percent advantage of half-crimp over open definitely decreased.

So one possibility is that your percentage difference for crimp versus open has been shifting over time, and Now just happens to be the first time you've noticed this re-alignment as manifesting itself in a measured 5lb increment.

One way that the effectiveness of the open grip can improve is by better utilization of the pinky finger -- by slight shifts in the angles of the other fingers, perhaps improvement of neural activation.

From your workout description, seems like the muscles of your pinky are the "freshest" from not getting utilized in two of the other grips (unlike the muscles of the middle finger which are getting 33% more fatigue than the two fingers next to it).

So if your neural control of the open grip had gotten better at utilizing the pinky finger, then those pinky muscles are fresh and ready to contribute disproportionally. Then the crimp grip has trouble matching the gains of the open grip.

Just a perspective.

Ken

kenr wrote:Another idea is just to change the sequence in which you exercise the different grips. Since several of those grips share the same muscles (FDP, FDS, and whatever the names of those which activate the metacarpal), you might be incresing the total training stress for the full workout on each muscle, even though the proportional contributions of each different grip to that stress was uneven and varied from one day to another. Ken

That's a great point ken. I already have crimps as the second grip after jugs though so I don't know how much I will gain on crimpsby changing the order. I suppose I can repeat some workouts with crimps and still gain overall.
thanks for the thought.

While kenr has some good points, why not go simpler: If adding 5 lbs. is too hard, why not try it with 2.5 added lbs.? See if you can hang that before you go back down, rearrange your workouts, or stress out about physiology.

couple quick comments.... this is a really good question. my buddy nate and i have talked about it a bit.

1) like kenr said, maybe look at the order in which you do the grips - if you are doing crimps at the end, you might be pretty tired by then.

2) if this is your 3rd or less cycle of hangboard workouts, i would probably recommend not going completely overboard on the crimps just yet. if you are just barely successfully completing your set and it feels desperate, i wouldn't recommend adding weight.

3) some grips are harder for some people than they are for other. for me, i just don't really ever get stronger at the pinch grip. i usually peak around my 3rd workout, and then either plateau or go downhill. also, i haven't really improved this grip that significantly over the years. it probably has something to do with my hand geometry.

4) don't let it frustrate you, over time you will probably get stronger at this grip. the most important thing is to do it without getting injured. if this means that during your cycle you actually get weaker at this grip, try to keep in mind the whole scope of your workout. is your overall workout getting better?

slim wrote:1) like kenr said, maybe look at the order in which you do the grips - if you are doing crimps at the end, you might be pretty tired by then. 2) if this is your 3rd or less cycle of hangboard workouts, i would probably recommend not going completely overboard on the crimps just yet. if you are just barely successfully completing your set and it feels desperate, i wouldn't recommend adding weight. ... 4) don't let it frustrate you, over time you will probably get stronger at this grip. the most important thing is to do it without getting injured. if this means that during your cycle you actually get weaker at this grip, try to keep in mind the whole scope of your workout. is your overall workout getting better?

All of these things are spot on. No comment on #3 :)

If you move the grip to earlier in the workout it will surely improve. That said, I wouldn't shuffle the order just to artificially manufacture improvement in one grip. Generally its smart to do the most important grips, and the most tweaky grips early in the workout. For example, here is my order:

Large Edge (warm up)
MR
Thin Crimp
Mono
Small slopey edge
IM
Pinch

The book will prescribe various grips and the recommended order for climbers of different abilities, but I can't give all that away :)

If you are already doing your workout in a sensible order, I wouldn't stress over it. Eventually the grip will come along. It may not happen this cycle, but it will eventually improve.

kind of a funny side note - i do my crimp last, and i do 2 sets of warm up crimping before it. apparently i need about 2 hours of "warming up" to get there.....

well guys what can I say, you always are great with advice! I ended up resetting the weight and going for longer time. My main idea that I distilled from the thread (forgot who said it) that I am trying to keep in my mind is that I don't have to have constant measurable progress for my crimping to get stronger over time. Just because I finish a workout hanging the time doesnt mean that repeating the workout same weight same time hung might not benefit me and "solidify" my gains.

Thanks a lot for the perspective.

slim wrote:kind of a funny side note - i do my crimp last, and i do 2 sets of warm up crimping before it. apparently i need about 2 hours of "warming up" to get there.....

Excellent point. That works a lot of times for me too. Part of it is a physical / biochemical "warming" up of activation chemicals and widening passages -- but I believe that another part is my (unconscious) mind "psyching up" to allow me to really commit to a hang with a higher weight near my limit.

Sequence change might work in either direction.

There's been recent research on non-climbing exercise performance which demonstrates a substantial mental component (of various kinds) in performance.
A related theory is that one important mental aspect is the (unconscious) mind not permitting the body to do things which might cause long-term injury.

So after an hour of easier hangs with no sense of injury, my (unconscious) mind can use that evidence to reassess the probabilities -- and judge that it's now OK to expand the "safety envelope" limit, and to permit committing to harder hangs closer to my physical limit.

Ken

P.S. Perhaps it also makes a difference if your conscious mind has been frequently recently feeding your unconscious mind with silly(?) thoughts like, "Crimping often leads to injury".

My progression follows a pretty standard 7s on 3s off x 6 reps.

If I'm not failing by then end of my 6th rep, I add weight in increments of 2.5% of my bodyweight.

I also never do full crimp on my hangboard. I use open grip and *sometimes* I'll use half crimp, depending on the workout.

After a complete warmup, I start with the hardest to hold grips first then move onto easier ones.

small edge, 2 finger pockets, 3 finger small edges, 45* sloper, 30* sloper, etc ...

I also keep detailed logs of all my training sessions, HB, Campus, HIT, etc...

A few additional strategies:

1) Vary number of reps.
I was starting to stagnate at 7reps (4 grips), 1-2 workouts per week. I saw progression when I switched to a workout recommended by The Robot ( robotclimbing.blogspot.com/):

Three fingerboard sessions per week: one centered around 5 reps, one around 3 reps, and one just focused on single-rep hangs on the half-crimp. In practice I usually do 5 and 3 and the max-reps workout is optional depending on other training. I feel like working three points on the "strength-rep curve" helped me see gains, but I have no real evidence to support that.

2) Train weak fingers.
I saw my biggest gains from training the back-2 fingers. I remember having an "aha" moment on Golden Boy at the Red when I was able to grab a crimp as a fat pinch (thumb and back-2) and it felt locker despite not having anything for my index and middle finger. If your back-2 are weak, this could be a big opportunity.

3) Up the training load.
Training load depends on myriad factors, from experience to emphasis (strength/power vs. endurance) to your work/outdoor schedule et al. For me, I found I was able to do 6-days on, one day off (Friday) if I emphasized intensity over volume, supplemented with low levels of creatine (don't do the "loading phase"), and tapered to lower volume over the course of the week (Again, this was all on advice of The Robot).

So a typical schedule (back in May, that is... - I haven't built back up to this yet) would look like this:
Sat-Sun: projects outside
Monday: 5-rep fingerboard workout (3 sets of 5 reps for each of 4 grips)
Tuesday: 3-rep fingerboard workout in the morning, bouldering at the gym in the evening.
Wednesday: campusing/treadwall
Thursday: 1-rep fingerboard workout in the morning, bouldering or cross-training in the evening.
Friday: Rest.

My point is: consider upping the number of workouts per week (but be smart about it and find a balance that works for you).

I am the one who convinced Rajiv that it is a good idea to train/climb 6 days per week. What he has written already basically encompasses my whole training philosophy. For the sake of reiterating his points as well as adding a little extra I will make a few comments:

Varying Reps: While I don't think it is a perfect comparison, the idea behind this is related to something in the weightlifting world called daily undulating periodization. Also since hang board reps are repeated isometric contractions I don't think there is a one to one relationship between reps on a fingerboard and reps of a more traditional exercise. This is one reason I don't perform more than a maximum of 5 reps.

Training Load: To reiterate what Rajiv mentioned: If you want to train 6 days/week it is important to have substantially different workout structures throughout the week. Also notice that the week plan that Rajiv and I use starts(on Monday) with higher volume and lower intensity and moves towards lower volume and higher intensity (i.e. Thursday). This is opposite of what many people suggest. This may be unique to Rajiv and I but we have found that once you are in shape the body recovers more quickly from very high intensity and low volume sessions than from the opposite.

I also have a theory that switching Thursday and Friday's schedule may be more optimal. Then Thursday would be a complete rest day, while the volume would be very low on Friday as to not tax the system. In addition, the very high intensity finger boarding (I also do ~45 min of hard short boulder problems) would in some way "prime" the neuromuscular system for the weekend. I haven't had the guts to make this switch, but I would be interested to hear what everyone thinks.

Michael

PS: I have had pretty good success in actual rockclimbing as a result of this plan.

What do you mean by reps? Seconds the hold is held?

A rep in this case is holding for 7 sec, with a 3 sec rest between reps.