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Bolts next to cracks in the Wasatch
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By Craig Childre
From Lubbock, Texas
Sep 26, 2006
Potrero Mexico, Sport Climbing Mecca.

Tony Calderone wrote:
If we build a Starbucks on Everest summiters can just ignore that, too. If we chip holds or install a steel ladder to make it physically easier to ascend we can just ignore those, too.


Well, that really wasn't the context that I intended. A bolt ladder was going a bit far in this reference. The only point I intended to make was that a Free Soloist can do their think on everything. Which, IMO, is a little different than those of us who strive or look for the X rated routes. Yes, I know we can make any route X rate by simply not placing gear, or not clipping the bolt. Then again, I am not really plugged into a lot of the FS community, so I am just musing here anyway.


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By brad schierer
Sep 26, 2006
Profile

The idea that climbers "put up" routes is pompous to say the least. The route is already there, and for trad routes usually little to no modification is required. The FA party merely records the details of the ascent so others know what to expect. Without launching into a diatribe on ethics, I think that The Whole Natural Art of Protection gets it right: what gives anyone the right to fire in a bolt line or destroy the ecosystem on, a.k.a. "garden", a route?

If you can't do something then save it for someone who can. There are PLENTY of routes out there, so do we really need routes up every square centimeter of rock?

p.s. some of us throwbacks like run-out routes because:

1) we don't share the climbing gym mentality that pervades our sport "brah".

2) we, as Tony puts it, look for something more esoteric in climbing than just what "number" we climb, or "getting to the top."

p.p.s. for some of us, success in climbing run-out routes w/o incident is more than a matter of luck.


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By glen kaplan
From Salt Lake City, UT
Sep 26, 2006
phew...nerves rattled, mojo gone... <br />way up in the West Desert

ahem...Mr. Schierer:

What you say resonates with me also...it makes me think of the adventures I've had in the Black Canyon, Organ Mtns., North Cascades, etc. These places are 'special' to me mainly because they are severely off the beaten path. And I could not agree with you more about messing with such natural beauty...I love the fact that so much 'natural' climbing exists in the Black...pretty much no trace. I have a great story about a FA I was a part of in memorial to Peter Terbush (who died in the Yosemite, Glacier Pt. collapse). It literally brings tears to my eyes and those 'supernatural' shakes to my body...it is like there was something greater than us that was a part of that climb. The only thing we left on this route were the final pieces of webbing at the top, which we needed to rappel (mind you, this was in the Black where most routes simply top out and walk away) this was a free-standing tower in the Black--we had to do one rap to get off! The rest of the route is 100% natural. Man, I enjoy that.

However, my girlfriend (whom I love and will most likely marry, eventually) also loves climbing. Yet, she will probably never 'enjoy' the Black. She'll go...and she'll climb most anything I can put up...but...she will never be able to 'enjoy' nor appreciate these climbs like you or me...that's fine, we'll leave those routes exactly the way mother nature made them...

but...here, literally 1/4 mile away from where we have chosen to live, lies an entirely different beast. sure, there are plenty of routes. there are also 'plenty' of people. I obtain something worthwhile when these people 'enjoy' like I do. Therefore, I think there is more room for 'enjoyable' routes that are so easily accessible by the masses...I'm thinking along the standard of the norm principle--the greater good (although I admit, this greater good is from a selfish, human point of view--it is obviously not the greater good from pure nature point of view).

We are a part of nature. We are a part of the environment--give and take.

I believe that the more people who are able to 'enjoy' fully what climbing can offer--will go on to do the greater good for the environment on a larger scale (i.e. these people who just climbed their first bolted 5.10 and are jazzed, might eventually aspire to climb in the Black, and they certainly will be able to appreciate that for what it is...)

pretty abstract, I know...

but I still think that climbing just wouldn't be any fun if ALL those lines, just minutes from my doorstep, were solos, or 100% natural.

...phew...


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By Nate Williams
Sep 26, 2006

I can't help but feel that if this public forum was truly designed to be used as a tool for the betterment of our local climbing community then why didn't Tony present his concerns with the route at the Coal Pit Butress to the readers and ask their opinions on how it should be handled? Instead he took matters into his own hands and went up there and changed the route because HE wanted to.
I'm not saying that all changes to climbs need to be voted on, but since this whole "soap opera" started he has been defending his actions, instead of getting an idea about how the community felt about it before he took action. I'm certainly not flaming here I just don't understand how this dialog has been helpful. I read these posts about once a week just to catch up, shit I can't believe I ever gave my mom a hard time about her addiction to All My Children, and I still just continue to hear opinions.
Pulling old pitons, adding new webbing and replacing old bolts is one thing to preserve an old route, but this route is only 3 years old. I just can't accept the idea that TC's actions to take matters into his own hands were done for the right reasons; more of a personal crusade.
Go ahead and pick out little quotes from my posting and tear them apart, but this whole episode seems to be a lot more of a personal battle rather than a genuine contribution to our/my climbing community.


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By Nate Williams
Sep 26, 2006

Mr. Calderone,
What am I insinuating that is not true?


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By Nate Williams
Sep 26, 2006

Mr Calderone,
2)Why do they have to discuss it in private?
How does that help provide support or criticism?


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By Nate Williams
Sep 26, 2006

Not trying to be a jerk about any of this at all, but it seems like the ranting and raving that has taken place since this started was all about who is right and who is wrong. You have admitted to doing what you claim was "fixing" the route without the FA's consent or the communities either. I simpley suggest that in the future, since "fixing" routes is something you seem to do frequently, if you can't get the FA's approval you should express your concerns to the people who climb in the area frequently and see how they feel about what you are planning. From the feedback you should get a good idea as to if what you want to do is a good idea. It wouldn't take that long to do. However, this issue is well beyond that point. Just an idea on how we can be proactive and make these sort of discrepancies a bit easier in the future.
Just FYI, no one got drug through this crap. All contributions were voluntary I would assume.


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By hawkeye
Oct 1, 2006

d.reed was probably climbing before you could ride a bike.

bsmoot and others here as well.

not that it makes much difference.


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By hawkeye
Oct 3, 2006

tony,

if you got drug through all of this crap, you kept hanging on like it was a jug and there was 100000 feet of air beneath your feet and you had no rope.

frequently, people are scorned mistakenly. sometimes, they deserve it.

while you may have done things for the comunity in terms of bolt replacement, the attitude and the tone of your posts here diminsh any kind of thanks you will ever receive from me or many members of the community.


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By brad schierer
Oct 3, 2006
Profile

Mr. Kaplan and Mr. Calderone,

Thank you for the votes of confidence; however, I feel I need to clarify my position. I have in the past enjoyed my fair share of bolted sport climbs. I think that there is plenty of fun to be had climbing in sport areas. That said, my original comments were wre the result of comments I read earlier that suggested people who climb run-outs are somehow irresponsible or dangerous climbers whose mentality is invalid. We have sport routes that are bolted safely for the masses. Fine. But (to refer back to the original topic of this thread) bolting next to cracks, retro-bolting or firing in a line of bolts just to put up some new routes on some pile I think does something to devalue our sport. I realize that as Peter Croft said, some people want climbing to be a sport like tennis or football is a sport, but I think they're certainly missing out on something.

p.s. Mr. Kaplan, I enjoyed your tale re: the FA in the Black. Been there and I love it! Right up there with Squamish, Cochise, and the Valley.


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By hawkeye
Oct 3, 2006

tony,

you take this way, way to seriously.

you come across the wrong way.

i never asked you for anything. ever. not ever.

i never did more than a little jabbing at your condescending, self righteous remarks.

i never ever threatened you.

if you had an attitude change so far as your posts are concerned, you might find that the world is a nicer, warmer more friendly place. you might find people coming to your side, wanting to be a part of the things you offer the community. you might find them on your side pretty often.

i hope you come across different in person than you do on the internet. then you will already know that i am speaking the truth.


PS - i apologize if i did ever call you any silly names.


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By Duncan
From Salt Lake City
Oct 3, 2006
Radiation Babies, Hellgate, Taken by Greg Martinez... Rock on bud, best photo ever!!!

hawkeye wrote:
PS - i apologize if i did ever call you any silly names.


I don't, but it wouldn't matter if I did... nothing seems to get through to TC and reposting the Natural Line is evidence of that.

Going with the subject, there are many circumstances where a bolt next to a crack can happen; however, though generally not wanted, is it really the end of the world? And who's got the kauna's to officially say what distance is too close? 1'? 5'? 10'? The scariest thing I see though is the references by certain people that they are willing to just cut the bolt, and not have the balls to talk about it publicly. And whoever said if you are expecting a bolt and you get there and its not there... to suck it up... you are about as bad as... I'm not even saying, because no ones life is worth sucking it up when it comes to protection that should be there and isn't because someone thought they new better, or that their opinion of how a route should be is more important! The FA team on any route is going to make mistakes, but its easier to look back on something and criticize, but its just plain dangerous to rip out something that other people are depending on being there!


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By Jason Thomas
Oct 3, 2006
my dog defending my proj

Tony Calderone wrote:
I know two people who personally volunteered to die for you. One volunteered to die for your soul. The other volunteered to die for your freedom. When you recognize who those people are they will speak to you. But don't expect them to say another word to you until then.

HUH? is this some sorta god and country thing? Is king george dubya posting on this site now?


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By Tea
Oct 4, 2006
just Jong it!

Tony Calderone wrote:
One volunteered to die for your soul. The other volunteered to die for your freedom. When you recognize who those people are they will speak to you. But don't expect them to say another word to you until then.


er?......WTF? (scratching head...wondering if I missed something)


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By Stephen Colbert
From utah
Oct 4, 2006
me bringing freedom home <br />

Tea wrote:
er?......WTF? (scratching head...wondering if I missed something)
He's obviously a GOD fearing, flag waving, freedom loving american. Not like you two pinko commie liberals.


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By Boissal
From Small Lake, UT
Oct 4, 2006

Jesus kissed you ?! Man, that's sweet !


Sorry...


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By tenesmus
Oct 4, 2006

classic. I see your method now. You're using Jesus' method of teaching the masses with mysterious parables. Maybe if I'd been reading all of your posts with this in mind I'd have seen the light long, long ago.


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By tim f
From Albuquerque, NM
Oct 4, 2006
Me and the boys

Imagine my surprise when I came home from work ready to read up on the latest news about bolts next to cracks in the Wasatch and instead saw posts about kissing the Lord. Where did that come from?


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By jonathan knight
Oct 4, 2006
Kessler Cairn

Tony, most intelligent folks would have done the same with regards to using the tree as a back up. Good story, glad you made the right choice there.

I was wandering around Storm Mountain the other day, and I checked out Resevoir Ridge for the first time. The two chain anchors, 15' up from the base are a fine example of bolts that need to go, IMO.



This is an awful example, especially in an educational setting. There is good gear around this placement, and it is no where near hard or high enough to justify its length. There are also two bolts very close together at the base of the crag right next to a 2-2.5" crack. The bolts are about 4 inches apart. This is all super visible to the general public and the paint has worn off of the chains, as well. I imagine that this has something to do with a current U of U instructional regime, but the old rock drop belay test could be easily set-up from natural anchors in the same location, from a higher anchor, in a gym, or on the inside or outside of one the many concrete structures on campus.




Whereas the Cranial bolt is probably good for the relatively unexperienced leader, this configuration has been set up by those with enough experience to know better.


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By John J. Glime
From Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 4, 2006
...

John Rogers wrote:
this was where Harold Goodro used to do all his skills for the rock 1 class while he was still alive. There used to be two 1/4" buttonhead anchors in the same location, so as modern gear has evolved, so has this anchor. The chain is not needed, it is just overkill. Tony is teaching rock 1, but no longer climbs, is combative,and very closed minded. If I may make a suggestion: just leave this alone, or talk to tony about alternitives.


Chop! Chop! Chop! er... I mean, Remove and patch! Remove and patch! Remove and patch!

If for no other reason than to get someone who is combative and closed minded riled up. :)

How come no one taught me how to fall??? (Does it really need to be taught?? I think gravity is pretty straight forward...)


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By bsmoot
Oct 4, 2006
Me in the 70's

Jonathan:

Those bolts have been used by the University of Utah for at least 25 years. When I worked for them in the early eighties, they were there. This was under the direction of Harold Goodro. The bolts were used for fall practice. As Harold would encourage, a student would climb up to the bolts. The belayer would pay out 4 feet of slack and the reluctant, quavering student would jump off! Part of the class would also go over to a nearby tree and catch a 50 pound cement block, using a hip belay. I was sooo glad I never had to catch that thing. Students would come back the next week with big bruises. This was all in the beautiful setting of the Storm Mt. area. The students became dang good belayers.

These bolts serve a very useful purpose. Year in and year out they have been used in the beginning class. They are hidden from the tourists, and are close to the ground so the student and instructor can easily communicate. I think it would be sad if they were removed, they just need to be painted.


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By Duncan
From Salt Lake City
Oct 4, 2006
Radiation Babies, Hellgate, Taken by Greg Martinez... Rock on bud, best photo ever!!!

Interesting posts. If those chains are being used by classes I say just leave them. That could be taught in a gym, but at the expense of money whereas climbing is already a costly investment. That area if I am not mistaken, has a great deal of class type teaching going on, like Six Appeal being an intro to outside rock for newbies. If they are being used, leave the chains. If not, I'm sure Choppy would love to add another extermination to his list?


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By Duncan
From Salt Lake City
Oct 4, 2006
Radiation Babies, Hellgate, Taken by Greg Martinez... Rock on bud, best photo ever!!!

WTF? Jesus now communicating through data instead of prayer, and now Satan through data instead of Devilish Chanting??? I must say i don't believe in either of you, but the greatest trick the devil ever played was to convince the world he didn't exist. I'm still not going to church Satan, and Jesus, where is your South Park pic? Come on, we know who won that boxing match!


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By Tea
Oct 4, 2006
just Jong it!

I had to do the bucket catch for Goodros class many years ago.. I had the rope running wrong, and now only have one testicle and a still carry the scar..And I h'aint never dropped nobody! HA!


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By Jason Thomas
Oct 5, 2006
my dog defending my proj

Boissal wrote:
Jesus kissed you ?! Man, that's sweet ! Sorry...
? what'd I miss?


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