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Jun 24, 2012
Just a teaser
Anyone find a good, consistent dealer online for the SS Hilti's? Monty
From Golden, CO
Joined Mar 13, 2006
3,039 points
Jun 24, 2012
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch
The Dread Pirate Killis wrote:
Plated bolts matched with plated hangers will outlast stainless hangers with plated bolts-99% of the replacement I've had to do in Red Rock. Galvanic corrosion is the enemy, here-not Ed for putting up routes with appropriate hardware.


Not sure I've ever seen any evidence of that. Plenty of old, stainless SMC hangers in Red Rocks placed with button or thread head rawls which aren't plated. Same here in the Wasatch. In the immense pile of bolts from replacement efforts, I've never seen any sign of galvanic corrosion.

Some examples of bolts I've pulled, plated bolts, stainless hangers:

Bolt pulled from Lower S Curves, Big Cottonwood Ca...
Bolt pulled from Lower S Curves, Big Cottonwood Canyon. Placed 1990, pulled 8/11/2003.


Bolts pulled from Division Wall in American Fork C...
Bolts pulled from Division Wall in American Fork Canyon. Placed 1991? Pulled 10/23/2004.


I think there's some evidence out there that mixing aluminum hangers with anything steel, especially in humid/wet climates, is a bad idear.

But, I don't think, especially in the dryer interior of the west in the U.S., that galvanic corrosion is a concern.

Got some data? Post up!
Brian in SLC
Joined Oct 6, 2003
11,031 points
Jun 24, 2012
Summit of Joy (III 5.8R) in Kananaskis, Alberta, C...
Brian in SLC wrote:
I think there's some evidence out there that mixing aluminum hangers with anything steel, especially in humid/wet climates, is a bad idear. Got some data? Post up!


Learned about this from Index climbing. I might be incorrect, but I believe there were one or two fairly bad accidents due to mixing of metals.

From cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbt...

"I took the liberty of loading two of those photos onto the CC photo gallery and posting them here so everyone doesn't have to download the whole file. If you want them removed let me know.

Is that, what is it called?, stress-corrosion cracking? that results from the use of two different alloys like a non-stainless bolt and a stainless hanger??

Edit: Galvanic Corrosion is the term for corrosion due to contact between two different types of metal. Stress Corrosion Cracking is due to chlorine ions from dissolved slats in sea water.

Edited by dberdinka (08/25/09 10:55 AM)
Edit Reason: I'm no metalurgist"


Broken Hanger
Broken Hanger


Shingle corrosion on hanger
Shingle corrosion on hanger
Patrick Betts
Joined May 21, 2008
156 points
Jun 24, 2012
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch
Yep, aluminum hangers.

Exfoliating corrosion or some such. Might not be galvanic, but, still, either way, bad.
Brian in SLC
Joined Oct 6, 2003
11,031 points
Jun 24, 2012
Grande Grotto
Monty wrote:
Anyone find a good, consistent dealer online for the SS Hilti's?


What type? Pretty much the only thing available in the US is the KB3 in SS. It's an awesome bolt but a stud so it may/maynot be a good choice.
mattm
From TX
Joined Jun 2, 2006
1,238 points
Jun 24, 2012
Stabby
Monty wrote:
Anyone find a good, consistent dealer online for the SS Hilti's?

There's a Hilti dealer on Stapleton Drive South, I think between Holly and Monaco. I cash sale off of an old account from a company I no longer work for who have a killer multiplier discount. Can't share it though. They know what I'm doing and tolerate me.
Mike Lane
From Centennial, CO
Joined Jan 21, 2006
839 points
Jun 24, 2012
ClimbBaja wrote:
Dan G, If you have any logic to support your statement (other than "per Fixe's intructions"), then we would like to hear it. It is generally agreed (despite what the Fixe site reads) that the Triplex bolt is safer when placed with the sleeve flange flush against the rock and using a 10mm hanger. The safety reason is cited above by Perin and ABB. The only disadvantage is that subsequent removal is slightly more difficult.


I haven't used the Triplex bolts, but I'm surprised by this comment (and several others) that assumes that we average climbers know better than the manufacturers about how to use their gear. This is the case with the Triplex but also with harnesses, belay devices, and several other pieces of equipment.

Fixe designs and manufactures equipment for bolt anchors. They are considered the standard-setters for bolt technology, so why would we so flippantly question the way they say one should use their equipment? Admittedly, I found no specific instructions on the Fixe website on the "proper" use of the Triplex, but I also found no specific information published by a reputable organization (including the ASCA) that says the Triplex should be used in any way other than how it is designed. Sure, companies screw up sometimes, and it's important to give them that feedback and always treat anything on which our lives depend with some skepticism. That said, "per Fixe's instructions" - or any designer/manufacturer's, for that matter - should be the standard until reliable, replicable testing proves otherwise.

So along those lines, is there any documented case of a properly placed and maintained Triplex bolt failing?
Christopher Barlow
Joined Dec 29, 2006
534 points
Jun 24, 2012
Grande Grotto
Christopher Barlow wrote:
I haven't used the Triplex bolts, but I'm surprised by this comment (and several others) that assumes that we average climbers know better than the manufacturers about how to use their gear. This is the case with the Triplex but also with harnesses, belay devices, and several other pieces of equipment. Fixe designs and manufactures equipment for bolt anchors. They are considered the standard-setters for bolt technology, so why would we so flippantly question the way they say one should use their equipment? Admittedly, I found no specific instructions on the Fixe website on the "proper" use of the Triplex, but I also found no specific information published by a reputable organization (including the ASCA) that says the Triplex should be used in any way other than how it is designed. Sure, companies screw up sometimes, and it's important to give them that feedback and always treat anything on which our lives depend with some skepticism. That said, "per Fixe's instructions" - or any designer/manufacturer's, for that matter - should be the standard until reliable, replicable testing proves otherwise. So along those lines, is there any documented case of a properly placed and maintained Triplex bolt failing?


ASCA has stated before that they DON'T put the flange through the hanger. I think greg Barnes has posted it before...
mattm
From TX
Joined Jun 2, 2006
1,238 points
Jun 24, 2012
Chillin' at City of Rocks
The Dread Pirate Killis wrote:
. I, like, to, use, comm,a,s, t,oo, Burt/Dex/Dorsey. Can you live your life without being a walking excuse for a yeast infection on this site for, say, a day straight?


Nice Kills!!!

There are in fact many of us foreigners on MP who may not always use "proper" English. But hey, I consider myself a very safe climber using good judgement.

Great thread!!!! And great information provided by all.
Princess Mia
From Vail
Joined May 22, 2006
422 points
Administrator
Jun 24, 2012
Patrick Betts wrote:
Learned about this from Index climbing. I might be incorrect, but I believe there were one or two fairly bad accidents due to mixing of metals. From cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbt... "I took the liberty of loading two of those photos onto the CC photo gallery and posting them here so everyone doesn't have to download the whole file. If you want them removed let me know. Is that, what is it called?, stress-corrosion cracking? that results from the use of two different alloys like a non-stainless bolt and a stainless hanger?? Edit: Galvanic Corrosion is the term for corrosion due to contact between two different types of metal. Stress Corrosion Cracking is due to chlorine ions from dissolved slats in sea water. Edited by dberdinka (08/25/09 10:55 AM) Edit Reason: I'm no metalurgist"

That is not SCC, or Stress Corrosion Cracking, but rather exfoliate corrosion. Exfoliation corrosion often occurs in aluminum when it comes in contact with salt water or some other type of chloride. However, it may be possible for exfoliation corrosion to occur under different parameters, I don't know. Exfoliation corrosion is extremely serious, I have broken a biner with my hand that was suffering from serious exfoliation corrosion.
20 kN
From Hawaii
Joined Feb 2, 2009
665 points
Administrator
Jun 24, 2012
Christopher Barlow wrote:
I haven't used the Triplex bolts, but I'm surprised by this comment (and several others) that assumes that we average climbers know better than the manufacturers about how to use their gear. This is the case with the Triplex but also with harnesses, belay devices, and several other pieces of equipment. Fixe designs and manufactures equipment for bolt anchors. They are considered the standard-setters for bolt technology, so why would we so flippantly question the way they say one should use their equipment? Admittedly, I found no specific instructions on the Fixe website on the "proper" use of the Triplex, but I also found no specific information published by a reputable organization (including the ASCA) that says the Triplex should be used in any way other than how it is designed. Sure, companies screw up sometimes, and it's important to give them that feedback and always treat anything on which our lives depend with some skepticism. That said, "per Fixe's instructions" - or any designer/manufacturer's, for that matter - should be the standard until reliable, replicable testing proves otherwise. So along those lines, is there any documented case of a properly placed and maintained Triplex bolt failing?

Actually the Fixe you are referencing doesent manufacturer their bolts, or anything for that matter. Fixe Faders of Spain manufacturers Fixe gear. Fixe USA is owned and operated by Kevin Daniels. He buys gear from Fixe Faders in Spain and resells it in the USA under his own company name of Fixe USA.

But none the less, everyone's advice on this forum is correct. You should not place a hanger under the flange, if the nut gets loose, the bolt will pull.
20 kN
From Hawaii
Joined Feb 2, 2009
665 points
Jun 24, 2012
Mia Tucholke wrote:
Nice Kills!!! There are in fact many of us foreigners on MP who may not always use "proper" English. But hey, I consider myself a very safe climber using good judgement. Great thread!!!! And great information provided by all.


Oh... Is the OP a foreigner? Or just bad at simple English grammar? Ill go with the latter.
BurtMachlan
Joined May 21, 2012
6 points
Jun 24, 2012
Grande Grotto
20 kN wrote:
Actually the Fixe you are referencing doesent manufacturer their bolts, or anything for that matter. Fixe Faders of Spain manufacturers Fixe gear. Fixe USA is owned and operated by Kevin Daniels. He buys gear from Fixe Faders in Spain and resells it in the USA under his own company name of Fixe USA. But none the less, everyone's advice on this forum is correct. You should not place a hanger under the flange, if the nut gets loose, the bolt will pull.


And even Fixe of Spain has some of their hardware made elsewhere. Their famous hanger, for example, is made by Raveltik of the Czech Republic and it looks like some of their bolts are as well.
mattm
From TX
Joined Jun 2, 2006
1,238 points
Jun 24, 2012
Grande Grotto
johnL wrote:
I don't see an advantage over the power bolt now. Ease of removal was all they had, to keep them safe we now have to sacrifice that feature? Pass the Powers please. Hell, I'd rather use glue ins inland on hard rock than, be kept up st night wondering if the bolts I placed were going to catch a fal.


I believe they're still easier the remove than a 5-piece. The expansion cone is not a friction fit like the Powers and since it's one piece it's a LOT easier to get the cone and shaft out of the hole. Getting the sleeve out is a bit harder than when the hanger is on it but not too bad. Vice grips should do the trick I'd think.

I've only pulled 5-Pieces and they're a PITA.
mattm
From TX
Joined Jun 2, 2006
1,238 points
Administrator
Jun 24, 2012
mattm wrote:
I believe they're still easier the remove than a 5-piece. The expansion cone is not a friction fit like the Powers and since it's one piece it's a LOT easier to get the cone and shaft out of the hole. Getting the sleeve out is a bit harder than when the hanger is on it but not too bad. Vice grips should do the trick I'd think. I've only pulled 5-Pieces and they're a PITA.

That is true, the 5-piece bolts are not very easy to remove compared to the Triplex bolts. It is easy to get the machine bolt out of a Power-Bolt, but removing the cone and the expansion sleeve is not easy, especially in hard rock where you have the hammer the bolt in. But the Power-Bolts are pretty much the strongest expansion bolt on the market and they are far more secure and safer than the Triplex bolts.
20 kN
From Hawaii
Joined Feb 2, 2009
665 points
Jun 24, 2012
Bucky
Since there are some knowledgable folks posting right now, I have a question regarding galvanic corrosion.

When people talk about the dangers of mixing metals, say SS and zinc plated steel, I would assume that water running down the cliff with some natural salts in it gets between the hanger and the bolt and acts as the electrolyte, yes? (Let us assume that we are not in a marine environment with salty, moist air for the moment). Thus I would assume that simply hanging zinc plated chain from an all SS bolt and anchor setup would not be a problem because the connection point is sufficiently exposed to air such that any water (i.e. the required electrolyte) quickly evaporates and poses only a minor issue. Is my understanding correct?
Thanks guys.
J. Albers
From Colorado
Joined Jul 11, 2008
2,223 points
Jun 25, 2012
J. Albers wrote:
Since there are some knowledgable folks posting right now, I have a question regarding galvanic corrosion. When people talk about the dangers of mixing metals, say SS and zinc plated steel, I would assume that water running down the cliff with some natural salts in it gets between the hanger and the bolt and acts as the electrolyte, yes? (Let us assume that we are not in a marine environment with salty, moist air for the moment). Thus I would assume that simply hanging zinc plated chain from an all SS bolt and anchor setup would not be a problem because the connection point is sufficiently exposed to air such that any water (i.e. the required electrolyte) quickly evaporates and poses only a minor issue. Is my understanding correct? Thanks guys.


Disclaimer: I'm not a metallurgist.

I can tell you that I've seen galvanic reactions occur in an enclosure that not only prevented running/falling water from contacting the bimetallic contact area, but also had heaters to prevent condensation. Water wicks into very small spaces that take a long time to dry out. Even something as small as the contact between a bolt hanger and a quick-link will give enough time to have some reaction take place before it dries out after a rainfall.

I guess my question is "Why?" Why even give galvanic reactions a chance? You're spending the $$$ to make an all S/S setup to the anchor chains. Why not spend the extra few dollars to buy S/S quicklinks and chains?

I'm seriously curious about this myself.
Carl Sherven
Joined Dec 30, 2007
224 points
Jun 25, 2012
Carl Sherven wrote:
I guess my question is "Why?" Why even give galvanic reactions a chance? You're spending the $$$ to make an all S/S setup to the anchor chains. Why not spend the extra few dollars to buy S/S quicklinks and chains? I'm seriously curious about this myself.


I'm not a metallurgist either, but I am a chemist.

I can offer one sound reason to put plated chains on SS anchors - so the corrosion has a place to take place. I accept that under the influence of the weather, acid rain etc, SOMETHING is going to corrode. According to well-understood chemistry, the most active metal is going to get oxidized. Aluminum is very active, so Al hangers are bad. Zinc is more active than steel, that's why it's used in galvanizing - the zinc is oxidized and so protects the steel. In underground fuel tanks, there is a strip of active metal somewhere for this same reason. It's called the sacrificial anode and needs to be replaced from time to time. Same deal with the unpainted magnesium tab on the lower end of outboard motors.

Anyway, if everything (bolt, hanger, chain) is SS you don't know where the corrosion will occur, but the wettest parts are the most likely sites. So hang a plated chain (or at the least, screw links) on it, and watch them rust. That tells you the stainless bits are good. When things look bad, replace the chains/links. The bolts are still good.
Gunkiemike
Joined Jul 29, 2009
1,716 points
Jun 25, 2012
wham bam hand jam. Wrapping up the final moves of ...
Carl Sherven wrote:
Why not spend the extra few dollars to buy S/S quicklinks and chains?

its more than just a few extra dollars to go all SS...
Darren Mabe
From Flagstaff, AZ
Joined Dec 12, 2002
3,729 points
Administrator
Jun 25, 2012
Gunkiemike wrote:
I'm not a metallurgist either, but I am a chemist. I can offer one sound reason to put plated chains on SS anchors - so the corrosion has a place to take place. I accept that under the influence of the weather, acid rain etc, SOMETHING is going to corrode. According to well-understood chemistry, the most active metal is going to get oxidized. Aluminum is very active, so Al hangers are bad. Zinc is more active than steel, that's why it's used in galvanizing - the zinc is oxidized and so protects the steel. In underground fuel tanks, there is a strip of active metal somewhere for this same reason. It's called the sacrificial anode and needs to be replaced from time to time. Same deal with the unpainted magnesium tab on the lower end of outboard motors. Anyway, if everything (bolt, hanger, chain) is SS you don't know where the corrosion will occur, but the wettest parts are the most likely sites. So hang a plated chain (or at the least, screw links) on it, and watch them rust. That tells you the stainless bits are good. When things look bad, replace the chains/links. The bolts are still good.
FYI, there are alloys that are completely impervious to corrosion. Grade 2205 stainless steel in a non-marine environment lasts, well, pretty much forever; or at least a really long time. Above that, there are pure titanium alloys, as they call it, which is a light alloy containing mostly titanium. These alloys can last even longer. We use grade 4 and 6 titanium alloyed bolts at our crag. The manufacturer conservatively tells us we can expect upwards of a 100 year lifespan from them, even if they are mixed with stainless steel chain links, and that is in a marine environment. When placed outside of a marine environment, titanium alloyed bolts may very well outlast the sport. I would thank that by the time they would need replacement, climbing equipment technology would have advanced so far that bolts are no longer used. :P
20 kN
From Hawaii
Joined Feb 2, 2009
665 points
Jun 25, 2012
Gunkiemike wrote:
I'm not a metallurgist either, but I am a chemist. I can offer one sound reason to put plated chains on SS anchors - so the corrosion has a place to take place. I accept that under the influence of the weather, acid rain etc, SOMETHING is going to corrode. According to well-understood chemistry, the most active metal is going to get oxidized. Aluminum is very active, so Al hangers are bad. Zinc is more active than steel, that's why it's used in galvanizing - the zinc is oxidized and so protects the steel. In underground fuel tanks, there is a strip of active metal somewhere for this same reason. It's called the sacrificial anode and needs to be replaced from time to time. Same deal with the unpainted magnesium tab on the lower end of outboard motors. Anyway, if everything (bolt, hanger, chain) is SS you don't know where the corrosion will occur, but the wettest parts are the most likely sites. So hang a plated chain (or at the least, screw links) on it, and watch them rust. That tells you the stainless bits are good. When things look bad, replace the chains/links. The bolts are still good.


You are misunderstanding electrolytic corrosion. In a suitable medium such as water two different materials have differing potentials and the anode is stripped of ions which transfer to the cathode or are washed away in the water. There is no need for oxidisation to occur and galvanic corrosion works perfectly in oxygen-less environments. A rusting chain tells you nothing about corrosion to the other components.
Nearly all the stainless alloys are very near to each other on the galvanic scale and will cause no galvanic reaction.
Rusting chains look like shit!
Jim Titt
From Germany
Joined Nov 10, 2009
185 points
Jun 25, 2012
Bucky
Hey Jim,

I know we disagreed in a previous post (no hard feeling here by the way), but considering you seem to be quite knowledgeable on the topic, did you see my post on the last page? Any chance that you have an opinion?

Thanks.
J. Albers
From Colorado
Joined Jul 11, 2008
2,223 points
Jun 25, 2012
Jim Titt wrote:
You are misunderstanding electrolytic corrosion. In a suitable medium such as water two different materials have differing potentials and the anode is stripped of ions which transfer to the cathode or are washed away in the water. There is no need for oxidisation to occur and galvanic corrosion works perfectly in oxygen-less environments. A rusting chain tells you nothing about corrosion to the other components. Nearly all the stainless alloys are very near to each other on the galvanic scale and will cause no galvanic reaction. Rusting chains look like shit!


Sorry, I am using the term "oxidation" in its purest chemical sense. The anode being "stripped of ions" is indeed oxidation (increase in the element's oxidation number) even in the absence of oxygen. So rusting, chloride pitting and I imagine even stress corrosion are all oxidative processes. Dissimilar metals are not needed for oxidation to occur, but having dissimilar metals will locate the site where it does occur.
Gunkiemike
Joined Jul 29, 2009
1,716 points
Jun 25, 2012
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch
What's kind of interesting with respect to all this chatter about galvanic corrosion, is, there is very little to no evidence of it at any crag in the U.S. between plated and stainless steel.

I've seen what I thought looked like galvanice on old (60's vintage more than likely) alumunum cave hangers on plated steel studs, which were pulled and replaced on a route, and, I got a good look at the hangers. The backside of the hanger, in and around the contact area of the bolt, had corroded with deep pitting that looked related to the contact with the bolt.

The Index aluminum hangers don't look like "sacrificial" anodes to me, or, to a high end metallurgist I showed the photo's to a few years back (exfoliation corrosion more than likely).

Here's a similar hanger on the Med at Capo Noli in Finale Ligure:

Aluminum hanger Capo Noli Finale Ligure
Aluminum hanger Capo Noli Finale Ligure


You can see that the area around the bolt is still hanging in there. If there was a "sacrificial anode" thing happening, I'd think the bolt/hanger contact area would go first. Looks like exfoliation corrosion to me.

Here's another aluminum hanger on a 1972 route nearby, but, away from the marine coast:

Rocca di Corno Finale Ligure aluminum hanger 1972
Rocca di Corno Finale Ligure aluminum hanger 1972


Seemed kinda ok.

Yeah, rusty chains aren't so good:

Schoolroom rappel, Little Cottonwood
Schoolroom rappel, Little Cottonwood
Brian in SLC
Joined Oct 6, 2003
11,031 points
Jun 25, 2012
Bucky
Thanks for the detailed reply Brian. In short, I really need not worry nor feel like a cheap ass for matching zinc plated chains (etched and painted) with an all SS bolt and hanger setup. Check.

...and yes, the stain from the rusty chain in the picture you posted is indeed an eyesore. Bet you could see that from the ground.

Thanks again.
Cheers.
J. Albers
From Colorado
Joined Jul 11, 2008
2,223 points


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