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By John J. Glime
From Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 16, 2006
...
So I am feeling a bit grumpy this morning, due to the weather perhaps? Probably. But either way, I am in the mood to argue, and coming across these semi-recent posts has given me that opportunity.

Topic: Bolted anchors on the West Slabs
Rationalization: They are convenient.

If I am the only person who gets riled up by that response, then boo me down just like if we were in the British Parliament.

mountainproject.com/v/utah/was...

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By John J. Glime
From Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 16, 2006
...
No brainer... it is more convenient to put in the bolts at the end of the offwidth, do it.

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By Mike Anderson
From Dayton, OH
Oct 16, 2006
Big Bro at the lip.

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By John J. Glime
From Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 16, 2006
...
theREALangry wrote:
Is doing what is convienient always right?


No, of course not. Only when it applies to yourself.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to rant... I am feeling like the REAL realangry. I guess I should take my medicine.

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By John J. Glime
From Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 16, 2006
...
On a serious note REALangry, go with your gut. It is your route, do what feels right.

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By glen kaplan
From Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 16, 2006
phew...nerves rattled, mojo gone... <br />way up in the West Desert
just so you know...I was sort of in a similar position with my project. I/we sent the route about a dozen times with different folks. The route goes all gear, and then you can belay the 2nd and scramble over to some other anchors on a nearby route. It is a pain though...

I think I would have probably left it as 'au naturale' but for the 40 other routes with anchors...the area kind of calls for an 'easier' logistical climb (i.e. it hopefully will be part of a circuit...climb, pull, climb, pull, etc.)

so...

I appeased my urge to be like the old guys by sending it w/o any trace (i.e. no trundling, no fixed pro, etc.)...then, I went back and established it so more folks would appreciate it...

see...simple...right?

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By hawkeye
Oct 16, 2006
First of all, good on ya for finding a wide line like that now you need to go send.

Now for the ethical masterdbate.
Its been climbed before back in 1959 when harold goodro of slc visited the thing. He obviously didn’t even need any stinkin anchor nor at that time did he have any wide pro besides a 2x4. he didn’t want to piss off all those old time ‘rado climbers. Utards have known for years how fragile their egos are and sh&&. Hell, the only reason I am reporting this is cuz I knew of a friend of a friend that took his climbin class back in the 80’s.

So its not your FA so there. Tuff it aint been reported on. If you place anchors we be draggin your name thru the dirt and yankin those suckers to use near some of our cracks out here in LCC.

You also gots to realize that any masterdbation sesh has to spawn several sub threads or it aint satisfyin.

But for reals. Just go send it and the biggest mistake is askin what the right thing to do is. You’re a big boy, go send and if so compelled, report.

Askin this or any site where bolts should be placed just seems plain wrong IMHO.

Good luck though!

PS – you did come to the right place though, you wants some ethical masterdbate by god we’ll giv it to ya!

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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Oct 16, 2006
modern man
As far as the olympus anchors go, most people dont have a rope to even use them and they are off to the left of the slabs anyways. dangerous raps they would be. Good places for mid-climb safety meeting though!

I figured (i hope)someone like Exum put them in for emergency use or something like that. I saw a huge blood stain at one of them a couple of summers ago.

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By John J. Glime
From Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 16, 2006
...
Bob D'Antonio wrote:
John...this is not brain surgery! If you do the first ascent...do it in the style that makes you happy.


I agree wholeheartedly.

It is when you go to things that have been climbed thoroughly in a certain manner, and then someone decides to change the atmosphere of the route because of their own convenience issues (even if that someone is a guiding company) that irks me.

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By Colby Wayment
From Ogden, UT
Oct 16, 2006
No comment
Angry... anchors at the lip and divide the route into 2 pitches.

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By Buff Johnson
Oct 16, 2006
smiley face
theREALangry wrote:
For local ethics, this is in the South Platte. So local ethics are determined by mood I think.


Basically, Yes. If this is anywhere near a bar/saloon, just put a colored circle around the anchor so they only damage a small area of the rock when they open fire.

Don't forget hunting season gets going this month; I think the license for route-setters decreased a little in cost and the bag limits have changed somewhat. I think the wildlife-folk are allowing for a limit of three route-setters in a given rifle season; bow, I think is still at the one.

For the male route-setter, called the stud, encounters are not unusual, I think the state record is 195lbs with 6 drill bits, total point score at 265. The female, called the fox, is quite rare to even encounter and has not yet seen a record bag yet as generally there are studs in proximity doing what is called "blocking". Keep in mind when in the backcountry, that any bagging of studs or foxes while they are on a replacement format is strictly prohibited. All tags must be properly displayed in the ear & genetalia not removed.

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By Brian in SLC
Oct 16, 2006
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch
John J. Glime wrote:
So I am feeling a bit grumpy this morning, due to the weather perhaps? Probably. But either way, I am in the mood to argue, and coming across these semi-recent posts has given me that opportunity. Topic: Bolted anchors on the West Slabs Rationalization: They are convenient. If I am the only person who gets riled up by that response, then boo me down just like if we were in the British Parliament. mountainproject.com/v/utah/was...


Specifically responding to bolted anchors on West Slabs, then in general around the Wasatch…

On the West Slab link, from above, John said, "I appreciate your comments on Mug's views. Bolts for yourself is a view that has been weighing on my mind a lot lately."

Interesting to ponder. However, I purposely place bolts not only for myself, but, for others as well. I suspect many do the same. Community service or whatever. Sure they are convenient. Most are, in one way or the other.

From the same link above, John again said, "But what bothered me was that the nature of the route was changed. I am not some ethical angel or anything. But I do feel strongly about leaving things alone unless it is an extenuating circumstance. It is not the purity of the West Slabs that bothers me so much as the slippery slope of convenience that seems to be infiltrating so many climbers minds as of late. Which is fine and great when you put up your own routes, but IMO a disappointing trend when done to previously established routes."

I’ve looked for these bolts, but, couldn’t find them during my last solo romp up the face. I’ve not found a great way to down climb, but, I still probably enjoy either not taking a rope at all, or, doing the walk off, rather than a multi rap gig (just feels more natural to me after a route like that…).

When I first heard about the rappel route anchors, I was kinda bummed. But, I couldn’t find or see them last trip up, so, must be pretty low profile. That’s a big face, and the hike off and/or down climb isn’t so pleasant. I’m a bit more ambivalent about them now. Especially, was a bunch of parties up there doing the route, and no one rappelled off that day. So, no impact to me having the rap route there.

Flip side, is, routes like the Dead Snag Arete area. Folks routinely rappel down this rig, instead of the walk off, or, walk off to the tree rappel to the east. I dislike that rappel anchor, as it puts folks on top of other folks who are climbing up, and pulling ropes tends to dislodge rocks onto parties below. I did arrange the chains so they are equal awhile back, although, I’ll have to admit, I gave a thought or two, since I had a wrench, to pulling the bolts…

Another is Pentapitch. From the top of the 2nd pitch, folks used to walk and climb down the gully to the west. That gully is pretty junky now, because folks seem to use the newer rappel line.

Another is Callitwhatyouplease’s rappel anchor. Used to be a tree with slings. Then, chain on the tree. Then the tree died. Then, was a bolted anchor with a mish mash of links and webbing. Now is chain. I like it. Poor ol’ tree. That said, the rap anchors from the Five Fingers Gully area are all scrubby trees and the webbing up there is in various states of ugly. I wouldn’t be opposed to a nice set of chains on top of Tenderloin or the like. You can rappel with a 60 meter rope, off the ugly webbing mess at the top of Fat Man’s Misery, to the base of the Waltz. So, I’d think any added fixed anchor in that area, especially if it were centrally located, would service all routes there. Maybe located below the small rappel tree at the top of Tenderloin, perhaps, high on the flat face but below the tree, easy to see, easy to use. Exception to the climbs in the Five Fingers area is Chicken Chickenhead, which seems to top out a bit higher and to the west of the rest of the climbs to its right, at some mess of webbing, which is used to single rope down to the Callitwhatyouplease anchor (another candidate for a nice fixed anchor perhaps). Thoughts?

Sometimes I wonder about Schoolroom. Great 5.6 classic. Used to be that you placed all your own gear for the belays, but then, a bolted belay anchor popped up at the bottom of the Hook (years ago, I’m thinkin’) that some folks use for a belay on the second pitch of Schoolroom (I go up left to the top of the gully about the start of the third pitch, across from Knobs to Gumbyland). And, I’ve used this fixed anchor to bail off the Hook, to Bushwack Crack’s anchor, to the ground. Nice, I don’t have to top out the Hook and walk over to some anchor some where. But, I think I’d be bummed if Schoolroom had fixed anchors added. If they were, folks would, no doubt, use them especially to do a pitch or two then rap off. Neat the way it is and it would definitely change the character of Schoolroom to add fixed belay/rappel anchors.

So, mixed bag. I like fixed anchor rappels for convenience in some spots, and not others.

Cheers,

FLAG
By bsmoot
Oct 16, 2006
Me in the 70's
I'd be bummed to see bolts at the top of any of the Five Fingers routes. Since the 60's climbers have been doing these routes and then scrambling over to the Five Fingers Rappel. This Rap was also used for Satan's Corner & Beckey's Wall. There are so many routes set up with rap anchors now it would be nice to have some of the old classics remain in their original state.

From the 50's - mid 80's basically all climbers hiked off of climbs or rapped off of trees. A bit inconvenient, but it was low impact and gave climbers a chance to develop skills on descending, route finding and self reliance. Bolted belays on old routes deprive climbers young & old the chance of building their own belays and more importantly, seeing how the route was originally done. Placing gear will benefit new climbers as they aspire to the long classices of the high mountains.

Bolted belays have been added to popular routes like The Hook, Pentapitch, Crescent Crack, Tingey's Terror etc. I think that's enough! All of these routes used to safely be belayed before bolts. In Yosemite, most of the old moderate classics still remain in their original natural state. Hope we can leave some of the old traditional routes as they have always been. At least we've got cams, offsets and sticky rubber now.

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By Brian in SLC
Oct 17, 2006
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch
bsmoot wrote:
I'd be bummed to see bolts at the top of any of the Five Fingers routes. Since the 60's climbers have been doing these routes and then scrambling over to the Five Fingers Rappel.


Where exactly is the Five Fingers rappel? Is it the tree on top (and slightly climber's left) of Tenderloin?

I understand the keeping the skills sharp game, in terms of having to suss out down climbs, etc. But, if the standard rappel anchor is a tree, and the tree is suffering from too much action, then, isn't a bolted anchor less impact on the tree, and hence, the area? Doesn't take much skill to add yet another sling around a tree (I clean a ton of slings off trees by the standard Schoolroom rappel every season, 'cause folks apparently either don't like the down climb, or, can't find it).

Also, isn't a bolted anchor lower impact, at least visually, than a bunch of sling on a tree? Dunno. Also, I'd think that hiking around on that loose rock and bad soil above the routes isn't low impact compared to rapping off, especially if you're digging around for a natural rappel anchor. Tons of loose rock up there.

See Bushwack Crack. Those trees look great now.

Leggo My Eggo, ditto (tree and loose block, was only a matter of time). Variety Delight/Huevos Rancheros, ditto. Beckey's Wall, ditto. Tarzan, ditto.

Right now there is at least four rappel anchors in the Five Fingers area, consisting of several huge wads of slings (had it not been getting dark the other night...), some brightly colored. Some of the trees incorporated into these anchors are not robust (hence, a ton of sling to several of them, including one tied into some crappy rock). Seems rather high impact compared to a single bolted community anchor, which would funnel folks into one area, rather than have folks trample all around up there trying to not knock stuff down, create erosion trails, etc.

Anyhoo, yeah, the taming of LCC...I hear what you're saying.

As far as Yosemite goes...name of few of them classic old moderates that remain in their original condition. 'Cause, I don't think so...ha ha...

safeclimbing.com/areas/califor...

Cheers!

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By tim f
From Albuquerque, NM
Oct 17, 2006
Me and the boys
Which impacts the environment more - 200 climbers using one rappel station and associated trail to descend, or 200 climbers using 5 - 6 different "rappel trees" and associated trails to descend?

I tend to agree with Brian in SLC. In the absence of a safe walk-off, a bolted rappel station impacts the environment much less than climbers scrambling all over loose talus looking for trees to rappel off of. The tree will one day die from the abuse and the wads of webbing are unsightly in the mean time. A camoflauged bolt and chain combo that is not visible from below looks a lot better than a wad of slings IMO. Even better is if the bolt and chain combo is placed such that it can be used to descend from multiple routes w/o interfering with climbers on those routes, IMO.

Of course, this means that some of the "adventure" may be lost, but that is an acceptable trade off for preserving the environment (IMO), particularly as climbing traffic increases.

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By Tom Hanson
Oct 17, 2006
Climber Drawing
GRIDBOLT THE UNIVERSE!

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By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Oct 17, 2006
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.
tim f wrote:
Of course, this means that some of the "adventure" may be lost, but that is an acceptable trade off for preserving the environment (IMO), particularly as climbing traffic increases.


It would save the enviroment even more, and loose even more adventure if we all just stayed home. But then again, where do we draw the line.

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By triznuty
From Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 17, 2006
Concrete Jungle.
I think in a sport like ours, sometimes making things more convenient makes things worst in the long run. I know people who stay clear from certain routes do too their inconveniences. If we start making everything convenient for everyone...Then everyone will want to do it.

So in your statement Brian:

"Which impacts the environment more - 200 climbers using one rappel station and associated trail to descend, or 200 climbers using 5 - 6 different "rappel trees" and associated trails to descend?"

I think you need to increase your number on the one rappel station example. Because IMO I think convenience will increase the numbers.

Ex. (IMO) I think there would be a lot less climbers in the world today, if gear hadn't evolved. Now that gear is better and making routes safer....More people do it...

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By bsmoot
Oct 18, 2006
Me in the 70's
Brian:

The Five fingers rappel uses the BIG pine tree 15' east of the top of Five Fingers, not Tenderloin. Haven't been up there in a while but I just don't remember the descent being a problem. Up until now no one has ever complained about it. There were a lot of climbers back then.

There is an interesting evolution here. Newer climbers who are used to sport climbing, always like to descend back down the same way they came up, even if they're on a trad route. Older folks tended to like to hike off or summit instead of rapping back down. It reminds me of the first ascent of Supercrack in Indian Creek. Wiggins & party ascended all the way to the top of the buttress in 3 pitches. Now of course, the first pitch is only done. Guess if everyone must rap from those Five Finger routes, then a bolted rap station makes sense, but I still think that some old classics need to be left alone.

Brian in SLC said:

"As far as Yosemite goes...name of few of them classic old moderates that remain in their original condition. 'Cause, I don't think so...ha ha..."

I do! Nutcracker, After Six, The Grack Center & Marginal, Monday Morning Slab, Snake Dike, Royal Arches, the 5 Open Books, East Buttress of Middle Cathedral etc. These are very popular moderate routes I did back in the 70's and as of recently, have remained the same. Your list of bolt replaced climbs doesn't indicate any history...pretty weak Brian...that bathook your standing on is about to pop!

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By Brian in SLC
Oct 18, 2006
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch
bsmoot wrote:
Brian: The Five fingers rappel uses the BIG pine tree 15' east of the top of Five Fingers, not Tenderloin. Haven't been up there in a while but I just don't remember the descent being a problem. Up until now no one has ever complained about it.


I wonder if its still there. I gandered over in that direction. Hmmm. Will look again. Need to send another of the routes up there. Blow some dirt of them old routes. Hardly anyone goes up there anymore.

bsmoot wrote:
There is an interesting evolution here. Newer climbers who are used to sport climbing, always like to descend back down the same way they came up, even if they're on a trad route. Older folks tended to like to hike off or summit instead of rapping back down.


Did I just get called a newer sports climber? Ha ha.

bsmoot wrote:
I do! Nutcracker, After Six, The Grack Center & Marginal, Monday Morning Slab, Snake Dike, Royal Arches, the 5 Open Books, East Buttress of Middle Cathedral etc. These are very popular moderate routes I did back in the 70's and as of recently, have remained the same. Your list of bolt replaced climbs doesn't indicate any history...pretty weak Brian...that bathook your standing on is about to pop!


Probably give you Nutcracker (only one I could think of thats a popular moderate that hasn't changed). After Six? New rap anchors, but, yeah, not so much different. Grack? See the guidebook, new rap anchors. Snake Dike? After the FA, the FA party wanted folks to enjoy the route, and of course, Roper went up there and added a ton of bolts to it. Royal Arches? Old tree is gone. New rap anchors up there (not a ton, though). Five Open Books? Rap anchor. Not sure about EB of the Middle, but, I believe there's been both bolted belay stations added, as well as bolted rappel stations added in the decent gully (see super taco).

"As of recently, have remained the same"? Well, all climbs in Utah, recently, as in yesterday, are the same. I wouldn't offer Yosemite as a place where convenience anchors haven't been added to climbs...! Ask Bridwell about the current state of Sea of Dreams...

Methinks you're run out over a tipped out cam, purchased, no doubt, in the parking lot in Yosemite from Ray Jardine out of the trunk of his car (which I would gladly trade you a newer one for, btw).

Hey, give us some of that history on LCC. We're a boat adrift on a sea of granite, with no rudder. Who's been adding all these convenience anchors to routes on the Gate, and beyond? Probably before my time.

Cheers!

FLAG
By Brian in SLC
Oct 18, 2006
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch
Tony Calderone wrote:
What do we do when red/pink/purple rappel webbing gets fixed on bushes/trees all over these classic routes and constant cutting/pulling of it seems futile?


I think mentoring makes sense. When I first started climbing in LCC, I was shown where to go. Learned all kinds of ways to hike off, which rap anchors, which way the routes really went.

When I see folks scrubbin' around up there, I try to get a feel for how they're doing to see if they need advice on where to go. I usually don't yell up at them, but, in the case of some guys who looked like they were gettin' bouted at the top of Hatchet Crack the other night (looked like they were rappin' off with a single rope, from that single bolt anchor?), I did yell to at least ask if they were ok (since it was almost dark). Wonder what ever happened to them...

I don't mind the constant cleaning of webbing myself. Tells me folks are out havin' fun. And, really, webbing on a tree is pretty low impact, usually (unless the tree is hurtin').

Hey, there's a fixed nut at the crux of Satan's Corner. Was dark the other night or I'd have worked on it. And, speaking of convenience bolts, do folks go high or low to get to the anchors on Satan's? I like the low road, but, my partners seem to like the high road. Maybe a combo is easiest (ie, traverse low past the pin, then go up high prior to the hand holds disappearing over Stem the Tide)?

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By Brian in SLC
Oct 18, 2006
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch
Five Fingers tree...is it at the top of Five Fingers, but, to the east and down from Fat Man's Misery? Down climb to it? I don't think I saw it from the top of Fat Man's.

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By glen kaplan
From Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 18, 2006
phew...nerves rattled, mojo gone... <br />way up in the West Desert
hey gentleman,

I like the idea of mentoring...I am especially open to it since I want to do my best to establish/re-establish safe, fun, acceptable lines. This matters to me as I have made the decision to move past the 'idea' phase and into the 'manifest' phase (i.e. after months, I finally decided to put hammer to drill up in green adj. gully).

I am also starting to feel a sense of 'ownership' (at least in the sense that I too will clean/replace old manky webbing, and will eventually take up the swing to make sure that the hardware that is in place is safe and acceptable--in no way do I feel that certain pieces are mine!). I guess this is better stated as 'active stewardship'. This sense has developed since I started spending 'excessive' time in the canyons and now, that I enjoy the 'development/maintenance aspect' of climbing (in addition to actually getting out there and just climbing).

I have made tentative plans to get out with the Smoots and help/absorb some wisdom from them...I'd like to get out with you TC (oh my gosh!)...and anyone else who doesn't mind an extra arm...I am on the society wheel of existence and thus have an erratic schedule, but if you remember and would like, call me:
glen 733-0065

As for my take on convenience bolts/anchors...I think it comes down to the following variables (in situational order):
a) history: of route and area
b) vision: of FA
c) evolution: routes change and climbing changes
d) safety
e) impact: both environmentally, visually, and to resource management
f) traffic

cya

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By bsmoot
Oct 18, 2006
Me in the 70's
Brian said:

"Five Fingers tree...is it at the top of Five Fingers, but, to the east and down from Fat Man's Misery? Down climb to it? I don't think I saw it from the top of Fat Man's."

Yes, but the tree is back a ways. It's so thick, we used to just rap off of one of the branches, it is 75 feet.

In regards to your Yosemite drivel, your bolting with a really dull drill bit man, don't have time to shoot you airplane full of holes right now!

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By bsmoot
Oct 18, 2006
Me in the 70's
Glen said:

"I have made tentative plans to get out with the Smoots"

That's questionable company.

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By glen kaplan
From Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 18, 2006
phew...nerves rattled, mojo gone... <br />way up in the West Desert
bsmoot wrote:
Glen said: "I have made tentative plans to get out with the Smoots" That's questionable company.


yeah, definitely...maybe 'mentor' isn't the best word...

how about 'between the two of these guys, I'll have at least 1/2 of a good example!'

:)

remember to call me Brian/Jonathan

besides the weather (which is pretty awesome right now--) I've had plenty of time and energy...all I need is some direction!

PS I will be out this evening...we might go over there to S.Slabs...check out the sunset...

FLAG


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