Bolting Routes - Fresh Bump

DISCLAIMER: Can we make this a discussion about the topic, without opinion on ethics of bolter's location, experience, right, etc. My intention here is to gather information on the topic, for safety, and also insight as to whether I should make it my intention to then learn even more.

As was posted in the earlier forum by a 19yo climber, who was mocked, i'd like to know:
What to drill with? What Bolts to use? What hanger to use?

I'd also like to know:
When to trust a bolt? What to watch out for? How many bolts to TR on? How to inspect and maintain bolts?

CONTEXT: I am a second year climber, who has been to a number of bolted rap stations, from clean to ugly, nuts loose, badly rusted, etc. Yesterday I found a spot, 20m from my place, which had single bolts atop several different climbs. This is not some surreal, classic climber's area, but it is a few rocks, 30' max, good for beginner top-roping, near to my residence, with almost no capability of being protected from above, and with existing single bolt (assuming TR) anchors. I'd like to learn more, and see if it would be fortuitous for me to proceed with seeking out professional experience about bolting.

While I know there is an aura (sometime elitist) of "leave that to the pro's", I'm sure you can find an article on here about tying a figure eight. Everyone has to learn from somewhere, something, and I was hoping this forum could offer helpful information for those wanting to know.

Can post more of my specific q's. But waiting to see if this turns into bash-fest, a topic specific to my scenario, or a good clean forum about the subject.

Hey thanks for the great responses thus far. John I opened another regional thread inquiring about the area without to much specifics. I think this is probably a spot on the "down-low".

Also with further research this rock is sedimentary, puddingstone. Weird stuff, resembles a concrete mix. +1 for support of the "min 2 anchors" ideology that was basically the affirmation I wanted to hear. That type of formation wasn't offering us anything on top and my brain was fighting the wanting to climb/ safety first battle.

Other concerns, one bolt is missing a hanger. Is that something I should just buy a hanger (from a climbing site) and slap it on, or should i be concerned it is w.out for a reason. Loose nuts, just bring a wrench and tighten up (to spec)?

For other's researching this, a basic search returned this which I was reading this morning: safeclimbing.org/education/…, that article and all the other stuff on their site seems really informative, and I wanted to gauge this community's response against that publication.

Tom..#1 get in touch with Mark Sprauge,,he's in RI and has bolted more than most people. Learn about the ownership/ethics of the area.

Glue-ins and Fixe is my short answer

I had to look up puddingstone

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puddi…

which is a conglomerate with hard cobbles and an often sandy matrix.

That means a SOFT matrix. Besides, it'll be a bitch to drill a nice concentric hole (for an expansion bolt) as you transition from soft matrix to hard (granite/flint/quartzite) cobble, and vice versa. And if the drill doesn't do it, an expansion bolt may crack the matrix or pop a cobble, and be worthless.

So I strongly agree with John Strand, use one-piece, glue-in bolts, at least 3"(80mm) long, which you can get from a variety of manufacturers. I recommend Hilti RE-500, but there are other good glues that are less expensive. Use an approved/recommended glue, not something from Ace Hardware.

Secondly, what is the condition of the bolts that are already there? If they are discolored/rusty/corroded then you need to figure out (magnet) if they are stainless or not. If not stainless, then replace them with 316 stainless. If they ARE stainless, you may need to go to HCR steel or titanium, but that's unlikely.

Third, there may be a reason behind the missing hanger, such as: this bolt sucks, don't trust it! And just tightening the "loose" bolts may or may not work if the matrix is cracked, as I discussed above.

New climbers rarely appreciate the amount of WORK and MONEY it takes to bolt a route correctly, so this is a learning experience (which you may honorably decline). And you'll get a lot of satisfaction from doing it right.

But if you do it wrong and you, or a friend, or even a stranger, hits the deck... well, that's not good for you, your friend or the sport. So please, do it right.

Yeah I have no intention of "going out and doing this". But was hoping that the general responses would become A) an informative thread and B) a meter to comprehend the enormity of knowledge required for learning how to bolt.

So just to keep this going, I'm going to try to throw some more out there, I went back tonight to walk my dog and get more beta:

So that is what we're talking about, and here are some gear close-ups




So I found an additional two bolts on a new climb today. Great to have two pieces, but awfully close together by this forum's response's standards. Of the 8 total bolts, for 5 projected climbs, one is setup for two pieces, two can be equalized with a 25' (possibly need larger for extension over lip) cordelette to form an equalized two piece anchor, and two climbs need an additional piece for a two-piece anchor.


This is what we used on sunday to backup a bolt, extended back from lip ~25' with 50' closed loop 8mm cord

And here is a possible, but sketchy, and also the angles aren't really good, backup for the last climb I'm mentioning.


Really not to confident about last one, but it is the only thing around, see earlier topout photo. I think I might rig something up just to get out onto the lip, because looks like there is potential for a placement right there as a backup.

Feedback about, bolts, hangers, nut placements, and this type of rock would be great. Or stay on topic and keep giving your 2¢ about bolting. Thanks again for all the positive feedback.

Tom Sherman wrote:Yeah I have no intention of "going out and doing this". But was hoping that the general responses would become A) an informative thread and B) a meter to comprehend the enormity of knowledge required for learning how to bolt. So just to keep this going, I'm going to try to throw some more out there, I went back tonight to walk my dog and get more beta: So that is what we're talking about, and here are some gear close-ups So I found an additional two bolts on a new climb today. Great to have two pieces, but awfully close together by this forum's response's standards. Of the 8 total bolts, for 5 projected climbs, one is setup for two pieces, two can be equalized with a 25' (possibly need larger for extension over lip) cordelette to form an equalized two piece anchor, and two climbs need an additional piece for a two-piece anchor. This is what we used on sunday to backup a bolt, extended back from lip ~25' with 50' closed loop 8mm cord And here is a possible, but sketchy, and also the angles aren't really good, backup for the last climb I'm mentioning. Really not to confident about last one, but it is the only thing around, see earlier topout photo. I think I might rig something up just to get out onto the lip, because looks like there is potential for a placement right there as a backup. Feedback about, bolts, hangers, nut placements, and this type of rock would be great. Or stay on topic and keep giving your 2¢ about bolting. Thanks again for all the positive feedback.

Just a bit more info for you, all those bolts you posted above are plated steel (i.e. non stainless) 3/8" by 3" wedge bolts, and all of the hangers shown appear to be metolius (stainless) hangers. In a wet environment, the stainless hangers on plated bolts will cause galvanic corrosion, which is probably why the hangerless bolt is rusted and the hanger was removed.

The problem with wedge bolts is that it's about impossible to remove them when it's time to rebolt (unless you core drill them out), so generally you just overdrill the hole so that when the time comes you can just tap them back below the rock surface, then epoxy over them and camo the hole, then drill a new hole for a new bolt. This is why you really should never use plated wedge bolts.

As far as the distance between the two bolts shown, it looks just fine to me. I know fixe recommends 8" between bolts, but pretty much all concrete anchor companies use 1.5 times the bolts length to achieve full pull out strength of the bolts which in this case would be 4 1/2 inches. In the case of a conglomerate like the rock you posted I'd certainly like to see more than 4 1/2 inches between them to make sure that any weaknesses in the rock aren't shared by both bolts, but the picture posted looks fine.