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Bolting "ethics"
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By christopher adams
May 15, 2009
Shylo wrote:
CT climbing history "proud"? Hardly, more like sad. Ken has done nothing positive or proud for climbing. Ken has closed cliffs like the small cliff and owls lair, he runs around at night destroying routes even in other states, he violates no trespassing orders, falcon bans, landowner agreements, and gets arrested. He has also poured roofing nails over other peoples driveways because he doesn't agree with them. You are proud of such behavior?



First, Ken did not close small cliff and owl's lair. They were closed by the land owner because of environmental impact. If you take the time to have a conversation with him, he'll give you personal use of the cliffs. I have it, Ken has it... you don't?

Second, you're intentionally twisting my words. I said "IN THE PAST". Ken was there, scraping off lichen and loose rock, building trails, and writing guidebooks before you were born. The amount of groundwork he did was amazing, and definitely surpasses that of any other individual. His judgement has obviously slipped in his age, no one is denying that either.

My post was not about Ken or bolts. It's about an open mind. You guys are not prepared to consider all sides of the argument before you speak, and worse, before you act.

You also conveniently ignored the part of the post where i asked, "what happened to impact"?

Seriously, what happened to impact? I though that's what you guys were all about? It seems like you just used impact as an excuse to make headway for the bolting of sport routes at established crags. Well, I hate to say it, but if that was your intent all along (which i have a hunch it was) you could have at least installed the fixed anchors that you were talking about in a way that allows use of them for all of the climbs at the cliff.

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By christopher adams
May 15, 2009
Ms.M wrote:
-lastly, anchors at the top of every route? let me say, it is confusing when people say in one breath not to bolt, and then in the other that there aren't enough bolts. i'm not sure that firewall gets enough traffic to justify a series of ten rap stations over every route. whereas, i have found, that the best/most quality routes of the cliff do have rap stations. also, it seems that where there is good gear/features that can be used without damage that has been the case.


There are easy ways to set up anchors that serve multiple routes. Glue in eyelets dispersed across the clifftop about 8 feet back from the edge serve as an easy and convenient way to hang webbing and biners to the end of your desired climb. As much as I hate to use the Quincy quarries at a reference, good use of that tactic can be seen there. The result is many useful anchors with a minimal number of bolts.

For the record, I have an open mind. I am for bolted anchors, and against grid bolting. I am for the establishment of NEW sport routes, and against the bolting of established routes. I am for reducing impact. I am for tradition, and for progress. That puts me squarely in the middle of the argument. Forgive me if I come of as confrontational, but with the threats of physical violence in this thread, I feel I'm not even coming close to the threshold.

I just can't stand the mentality of "If you disagree with me, your opinion isn't valid, and I'll find some piddly reason why it's not."

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By John Peterson
May 18, 2009
In the Black
As the discussion swirls round and round, going nowhere.

The one thing that should be pointed out here is that the "no bolt" secret weapon is on display here: "if bolting makes climbing more popular, we'll have massive environmental degradation at the crags".

This is the alleged excuse for closing Small Cliff. I don't believe it for a moment. The Owl's Lair closure was strictly a NBWD issue, no different from their other closures.

This is the tactic that will be used with land managers in the bolting debate. Bolts = overuse. I think it's a very elitist argument myself - "my style of climbing is better because not that many people do it". But that's what is going to happen.

I think this is a very slippery slope - the logical extension of this argument is to simply close the cliffs to all climbing to keep things ecologically pure.

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By Miike
From MA/CT border
May 18, 2009
my foot
John Peterson wrote:
I think this is a very slippery slope - the logical extension of this argument is to simply close the cliffs to all climbing to keep things ecologically pure.


I see your point on that. Its also a slippery slope on where to even put anchors on climbs. since many of the cliff tops are chossy and local party zones it would make sense to put them lower down in better rock but that would solve nothing because people would still rap from trees or endanger their lives to get to those anchors so that they could TR.

Really what CT needs is a group that will work with the Access Fund hand in hand to help apply modern land stewardship to our cliffs. The kind of stewardship that most states have had for years and years. A fine example is how many states are already dealing with anchor replacement(ASCA)because they learned a long time ago that TRing off trees is never a good thing for the future of the cliff. Of course the same people also learned years and years ago that leading routes is much more fun than TRing or leading on hooks(which doesnt seem to be an accepted method of free climbing anymore for some strange reason).

What I want to know is where does one really draw the line on established routes? if it is a line that was led on hooks 20-30 years ago on a (whole)day that 5 people decided to climb it semi clean after TRing it a hundred times, does that make it an established route? not in my book. maybe it would be if those same methods were still being used but they are not(in free climbing at least). My idea of a normal established line is one that someone can lead and fall on without hitting the ground(I'm a wuss I know). A state full of modern day X rated routes that nobody ever leads(but TR all the time) is weird. or just very ego driven, maybe both.

maybe some day I will be free soloing 12s and it wont matter...

yep, its a discussion going nowhere but at least its in the open.
accessfund.org/site/c.tmL5KhNW...
safeclimbing.org/

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By Ben Chisols
May 20, 2009
Hey Clint,

You seem to have quite a stake in this issue. You quote like an IT consultant, scold the admins for their views, do extensive research, comment on tree conditions, discuss CT climbing ethics and history, spread fear of grid rap bolting, participate in our surveys, and complain about result accuracy when results don't support your views. The thing is you don't live in CT! You used to live in Mass years ago, but not in CT, and have probably climbed on CT crags less than 50 different times. I bet you can count the number of cliffs in CT you have been to on your hands, if not one hand. (Correct me if I'm wrong and make sure to quote me).

You live near the Valley, you have THOUSANDS of amazing trad lines for thousands of feet, yet you find the time to come to this thread and mingle with an issue that is 3000 miles from you. I know you used to climb a bit with Ken and support his views on "ethics". I hope there are other reasons for being in this thread other than being the defense counsel for Ken Nichols. You claim to not be kicking the hornets nest from afar but you are. I also hope you have a 9-5 job that sits you in front of your computer cuz if you spend your free time surfing and pretending to moderate a CT bolting thread, you may want to find other productive stuff to do with your time. Since you joined this thread on page 7 you have tried to be the voice of reason to the thread. You are not a moderator, you have no right telling moderators what they can say about Ken. You're just a guy that climbs too much, and spent some of that time climbing with Ken. I'm just a guy bored at work looking for a new hobby now that CT Climbing has pissed me off.

I have grown tired of the debates, and have started writing my own manifesto. The way I see it is that I own everything and will have the secret final decision in everything. I will ask no landowner or climber for permission for anything. I am not bound by ethics, and don't give a shit about FAs and lifetime climbers. I have little issue with chopping holds in retaliation for every chopped bolt. If I retro-date my exchange rate I think I probably owe Ken 100 or so chopped holds on his favorite climbs. I know where Ken lives, I know where he likes to climb/is allowed to climb, amd I know his favorite climbs. I am a creation of Ken, destined to put balance to the bad energy Ken has spewed for so long!

The time for me to be passive has gone; trad climbers that whine about bolts have pissed me off to stoop down to the level of Ken. Ken adopted his manifesto to stop renegade bolters, so I figure the best way to piss him off and fight back would to be a renegade bolter. Somebody has to and fate has picked me. The stories of that douchebag Ken will disappear with the stories of the ultimate douchebag "Ben Chisols" who chopped half the key holds to great climbs in CT in a drawn-out stubborn stalemate between Ken and me. I know I will live longer than Ken, and I know I am more stubborn than him! (Believe it or not) I will have people fear my chisel and crowbar more than Ken's hacksaw!!! (Sorry guideline #1; I tried for too long but 10 pages of posts, and 10 years of BS...) I love climbing and will do whatever I deem necessary to preserve what I love at any cost. I now know the only way to stop Ken short of killing/dismembering is to become a bigger asshole than Ken. Sometimes an explosion is needed to put out a nasty long-burning fire. This will be the end of our Gulf War in CT.

And screw the trees; I burn trees for fun! People will be more for bolted anchors if there were no trees to tie to and all the gear-placement options have been crowbarred. I will do whatever I deem necessary to make Ken's remaining years on earth miserable and he will see on his deathbed that all his effort was in vain and all his favorite climbs are now either bolted or chiseled to a pile a rubble. Now CT will have a new Ken-like figure that is just as evil, if not more, but on the pro-bolts side of the equation. I have also moved from pro toprope anchors and death-fall bolts to pro grid bolting, more to spite Ken's efforts than the liking of sport. (In fact I like trad more than sport, but am the only trad climber that doesn't freak out because I have the option to clip a bolt).

Simply put, bolts go up in CT or CT climbing as we know it will be forever ruined by some random assholes online. I am asking 0 permission from anyone, especially land owners b/c they have no say in this. I hope you all are really getting pissed off at this Ben Chisols guy about now! The grid bolts start appearing next winter and the holds start getting chopped as fast as those bolts disappear, (or if I just get bored and feel like chopping, that's what is so fun about being a crazy, righteous, asshole, I don' t even need a reason sometimes).

Ken Nichols has now given rise to Ben Chisols. The war is now on!

Now Clint the CT bolting Admin, let's see you pick this choss apart with your quoting tool. I expect at least 3000+ words or you get an automatic F on your paper.

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By Jim O'Brien
From Branford, CT
May 20, 2009
My new avi
That's the spirit Ben! Go get em!!!
LMFAO

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By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
May 28, 2009
Bocan
Troll.....

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By Puzman
May 28, 2009
Little finger
I can't believe this thread is still going... someone put it out of its misery, PLEASE.

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By Healyje
Sep 28, 2009
girl40
Ben Chisols wrote:
Simply put, bolts go up in CT...


Haven't checked in for a few months; good to finally see someone [anonymously, so almost] had the stones to publicly state the painfully obvious.

So what's tally / toll after a busy summer of drilling? What's the ratio of top anchors to protection bolts that went in, or is that the latest in state secrets?

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By Daryl Allan
From Sierra Vista, AZ
Sep 30, 2009
Me and my Fetish I guess.. ;)
clear!!!

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By stevecurtis
From Petaluma California
Nov 20, 2009
As a friend of Clints, I'll post. And by the way, I'm stuck on my ass in front of a computer screen in Honduras, with nothing better to do.
I've been at this nearly as long as Clint, and done a few hundred FAs around the world; from ground up onsight scare fests, to top down clean the choss, rehearse the moves on RBs, place the bolt under roofs. My views
1. Talk to locals first. Respect a consensus if there is one. If there are none, make your own rules.
2. Trad climbs can be contrived and worthless. A need to preplace gear on rappel, rehearse repeatedly on TR, etc. do not a lead route make.
3. There may be a consensus to make contrived trad routes--it is the prevailing ethic in a few English areas.
4. I'm too cheap to place a good bolt next to gear placements.
5. Bolted rappel stations are usually better than walk offs through briar and loose rock.
6. Some places shouldn't be bolted--Great Falls Virginia--because of tradition, access issues, law, etc.--go back to point 1.

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By al piner
Nov 20, 2009
Lk Minnewaska
this post should be bolted shut.................

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By Leo Hski
Nov 23, 2009
Bouldering at Ravenheugh.  Simply glorious.  Alist...
Clint Cummins wrote:
One that I'm not sure about: * "Two Dimes for a Quarter" --> "Blue Blazes" (Fire Wall) (this is from comparing with the Fasulo guide; which suggests "Two Dimes for a Quarter" may have been the original name)



Q: When do you take "Two Dimes for a Quarter"?

A: When there are no Nichols.

Source: Harry Brielman, a long time ago

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By P LaDouche
From CO
Feb 19, 2010
So the word is that CT has 4 newly bolted cliffs and I'm not seeing any info on Mtn. Project. Whats up folks? All I see is a bunch of crap that Clint Cummins added that he has never climbed at the Firewall. Why would someone go through all the trouble of posting all those routes(straight out of the book) when they have never even been there? I was under the impression that Mtn Project looked down upon that kind of crap.

I'll be looking to climb there soon and would love to see what traprock is like with decent pro, last time I was there I had a Ken Nichols book that didn't bother mentioning that most of the "clean" lines were run out death lines. I really liked the rock but dont really want to smash my brain in on a huge rock at the base after decking on a "clean" line. Do folks in CT really lead this stuff or is it some kind of Jedi mind game to make others think they lead these routes?

Anyways, I remember seeing lots of rock that would be fun as hell to lead if only a bolt or two was installed. I'll be around for a good part of March with rack&rope so post up some routes people!

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By icymonsters
From ct
Feb 19, 2010
we duct tape aid hooks to small dime sized edges for pro and drink heavy

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By P LaDouche
From CO
Feb 19, 2010
BTW- I could bring my drill along with me if anyone has their eye on a new line that they want to protect. You supply the bolts.

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By Jim O'Brien
From Branford, CT
Feb 25, 2010
My new avi
LaDouche- I like it, you must be from CT...

Yeah there may be some areas protected with bolts but I'm waiting to see if the people who might have placed the bolts post up their work. Don't know what they may be waiting for except the possibility of retailiation. Dunno.
If you really want to know where they are, you may have to meet up with one of us, be blindfolded and (possibly violated) driven there in the back of a certain white van with no windows. Or you can contact me directly, I might be willing to give up the secrets with the proper amount of beer...
We might have been out at one of the places last weekend- sun all day, nice lines and easy access, maybe...

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By Dan Griffiths
Feb 25, 2010
"We might have been out at one of the places last weekend- sun all day, nice lines and easy access, maybe..."


Yes, sun all day, nice lines, easy access, bolted line with no bolted anchor...I still had to trail a static...Oh the irony!!

Seriously though, I can't believe the thread I just stumbled upon, where was I last May? I just managed to waste an hour at work.

Back to my initial point (and this is to the bolter of this certain spray painted glass infested cliff)...Do we have permission to put in anchors?

To the larger audience...a steady climber's presence at this said cliff will only improve this particular area. Climbers will clean some glass and maybe I won't have to bandage my dog's bloody paw for two days after visiting.

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By Miike
From MA/CT border
Feb 26, 2010
my foot
funny to see this thread going still. nice!

I didnt know there were 4 bolted cliffs now, I'd love to know where the fourth one is. I wonder if Ben Chisols knows? Maybe Clint Cummins in CA knows, he seems to be really into CT climbing.

I'd post up the routes I know but all the bolt bigots make me nervous.

Damn this snow!

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By christopher adams
Feb 26, 2010
mobley wrote:
funny to see this thread going still. nice! I didnt know there were 4 bolted cliffs now, I'd love to know where the fourth one is. I wonder if Ben Chisols knows? Maybe Clint Cummins in CA knows, he seems to be really into CT climbing. I'd post up the routes I know but all the bolt bigots make me nervous. Damn this snow!


Fear is the glue that binds sport climbers together.

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By Miike
From MA/CT border
Feb 26, 2010
my foot
christopher adams wrote:
Fear is the glue that binds sport climbers together.

and to think I thought it was fear that kept people on the TR.

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By Jim O'Brien
From Branford, CT
Feb 27, 2010
My new avi
Fear is the glue that binds sport climbers together.

yeah mobes you sport climber!!!

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By Miike
From MA/CT border
Feb 27, 2010
my foot
Jim O'Brien wrote:
Fear is the glue that binds sport climbers together. yeah mobes you sport climber!!!


well I havent picked up the rack since that week I spent at the T-wall over thanksgiving so maybe "Trad" Adams is onto something.

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By Dan Griffiths
Mar 2, 2010
This categorization of being a "sport climber" if you believe some bolts should be allowed in CT (or anywhere) is just wrong. Do you feel like a "sport climber" when you clip the occasional bolt or bolted anchor at the Gunks? Some bolts do exist at "traditional" climbing areas.

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By Eastvillage
From New York, NY
May 4, 2010
Me on the summit of Devil's Tower
Any analogy to the auto industry is bogus.


This thread
This thread

FLAG


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