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BOLTED vs. ORIGINAL ROCK
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By Whitney Taylor
From Boulder, CO
Dec 10, 2006
I am writing a paper on the benefits and potential safety problems with bolted routes vs. the oringinal rock. Please Post your comments to help me! What are your thoughts?

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By Healyje
Dec 10, 2006
girl40
You'd have to be quite a bit clearer relative to exactly what you have in mind.

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By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Dec 10, 2006
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "...
Whitney Taylor wrote:
I am writing a paper on the benefits and potential safety problems with bolted routes vs. the oringinal rock. Please Post your comments to help me! What are your thoughts?


On the second page of this forum discussion I added some less commonly expressed thoughts:

mountainproject.com/v/northern...

But ultimately this sort of thing will not be decided by a resolution of the facts. These sorts of arguements are:
A) Not formulated on facts, but on the weight we give the various points that the facts for either side might support. In other words, people will rarely dispute facts, but rather which ones are of the most value or importance. People generally pick a side they identify with and then make their arguements by weighting the available data or 'facts' to support hteir pre-determined 'moral' cause. That's just how it is.
B) Not decided by a majority rule. F.W. Neitzchie put it well: 'The course of history has never been determined by the majority, but by the iron will of an energetic minority.'

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By Umph!
Dec 10, 2006
Allow me to context this with an analogous metaphor (as you don't seem to know much about the subject. . . my apologies if this is untrue).
Lets look at fishing with barbed (bolted) and barbless (“original”) hooks:
Barbed hooks will allow one to catch more fish with less skill and effort. However, more damage is done to the resource (fish) when barbed hooks are utilized. Also, when using a barbed hook, one may find that they have “lined” a bigger fish than they head intended. . . which could prove to be quite frightening, and dangerous.
Barbless hooks on the other hand will prove to be a slower, albeit more intimate, fishing experience. Greater skill is needed when using a barbless hook, and more diverse tools are necessary. Thus, it is usually a more experienced fisherman who will tie such a hook to his line. The benefits are to the resource (less damage done to the fish) and the fisherman, whom oftentimes receives a greater feeling of accomplishment once the fish is landed.
Both forms of fishing carry potential, inherent dangers. If a barbless hook comes loose during the “take”, then the focused fisherman may find himself reeling backwards, possibly injuring himself in the process. If a barbed fisherman isn’t attentive and allows his fish to swallow the hook, then he himself could get hooked when attempting to remove it.

As far as hooks breaking: this is dependent upon a number of factors; from the type of line being used to the experience of the fisherman, and certainly to the size and type of fish being sought (or caught).

Is one form of fishing “better” than another? Well, I’d rather not entertain that question (barbless is better) for fear of reprisal or angry retort from my fellow fishermen. . . .

Now, if you haven’t a clue about fishing, then I recommend some book study, equipment research and quality time with an experienced fishing guide; as not every fish is created equal.

One more thought, and in quoting Ed Abbey: Trout fishing. One must be a stickler for proper form. Use nothing but #4 blasting caps. Or a hand grenade if handy. Or at a pool well-lined with stone, one blast from a 44 magnum will bring a few stunned brookies quietly to the surface."
This "form" of fishing is analogous to yet another style of rock climbing. . . .


(Aren’t Sunday evenings at home just the greatest!!)

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By Jeff Barnow
From Boulder Co
Dec 11, 2006
What goes up must come down
Ditto to what Cameron said...Cameron obviously you should be on the rock or the river on a Sunday and not MP...although the true fisherman would never waste his time in CO on a weekend.

What Cameron missed is that as the world expands and people migrate to those areas that have more to offer these resources become limited or extinct by over use. Over the course of my life especially related to fishing, back country skiing, and climbing the more time that passes the less special each place becomes due to other people finding and exploiting these areas/resources. Bolts are similar to the enemy...i.e. any other fisherman who isn't me or my fishing buddies. As more fishermen abuse the river taking fish, cooking them or just wasting the river feels the effects and change takes place. Ultimately the fish disappear and then no one gets to fish. By releasing the fish back it might die but it might live and go on to birth more fish. Climbers can climb without modifying or damaging the rock for the most part and so can fisherman. Which way do you prefer to fish? and how hungry do you have to be to kill take one home?

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By Buff Johnson
Dec 11, 2006
smiley face
A good thing I see is that fixed protection for the anchor position allows the route to be used without as much impact to the soils as would a climber needing to top-out and build a temporary anchor.

A bad thing I see is complacency/inexperience when climbing on fixed protection. As fixed protection for sport routes makes climbing more accessible & easier to partake, those that don't have much experience for different situations that can arise while on vertical terrain AND those with experience make quick assumptions about their specific situation without thinking about all the necessary steps to double check the risk of a fall hazard; accidents -- rather totally preventable incidents -- occur, usually with fatal or near-fatal consequences.


If comparing leading a sport route with trad gear or clipping fixed protection for fall protection, I don't see either method providing more safety than the other. Which means to me that viable fall-protection depends on the situation at hand.

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By Old and Busted
From Centennial, CO
Dec 12, 2006
Stabby
The way you phrased that question is kind of hard to understand, but put the word "bolts" in any posting and out come the responses.

The safety benefit of bolts is obviously that you have greatly lessened your chances of death. The safety problems of bolts is that they may be installed poorly, be of low quality, or be in unstable rock; and they fail which would probably result in death. As for the original rock, it is impacted for millenia. Probably far longer than petryglyphs. Petryglyphs are generally considered to be of significant religious imporatance to the culture that created them. Religion tends to deal with the issue of death.

Therefore, bolts are clearly a spiritual symbol proclaiming man's ascension from the clutches of death itself. Ever since Man crawled forth out of the primordial stew and first stood on 2 legs our salvation has obviously been getting vertical. Bolts are mans way of shaking a fist to the heavens and shouting "I will not be limited to protectable features!!!". Bolt chasing may someday be viewed by future anthropologists as the pinnacle of Industrial Man's triumph over darkness and death; perhaps even the high water mark of Western Civilization itself.

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By Ty Gregory
From Salt Lake City
Sep 3, 2008
jwesus
jwesus

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By Not So Famous Old Dude
From Denver, CO
Sep 3, 2008
cameron wrote:
Barbed hooks will allow one to catch more fish with less skill and effort.


Welcome to the fishing forum:

I started crimping down all my barbs about five years ago after reading an interesting article about the issue. The article claimed that a barb created a bigger hole in the mouth of the fish, so the hook actually wobbled around and could more easily wobble out, resulting in more "quick releases." It also made the point that the barb required more force to penetrate the flesh, also resulting in more lost fish because they failed to be hooked well.

So, I gave it a shot. I noticed an immediate reduction in the numbers of lost fish after hooking. Like night and day. I also noticed no reduction in the abiliy to keep a fish on, even if I actually lost tension on the line briefly. That was a big suprise to me, because I quite naturally believed that if fishing barbless, you'd need to always keep tension. But, what happens is, as the article suggested, the lack of a barb allows the hook to penetrate more deeply, often into the bone of the jaw, and it doesn't wobble because the hole exactly fits the hook diameter, so it holds even better than a barb when there is slack in the line.

So, I would say that going barbless is best for both novice and experienced fishermen. There is simply no need to have a barb for normal trout fishing.

None of my fishing friends believe me though. It's like the Republican/Democrat debate on that other thread right now. No matter how much I explain it to them, they will never believe it until they actually try it for themselves.

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By Shawn Mitchell
From Broomfield
Sep 3, 2008
Splitter Jams on the Israel/Palestine Security Wal...
Not So Famous Old Dude wrote:
It's like the Republican/Democrat debate on that other thread right now. No matter how much I explain it to them, they will never believe it until they actually try it for themselves.


What are you talking about? The effect of barbs is subject to empirical evidence. The elephant/donkey fight is as much about value judgments as provable results.

If we watch a hundred bites on barbed and unbarbed hooks, most people will see who wins the argument. But we can live through the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and this decade--whatever it's called--and still be at each other's throats.

OK, back to your bolts and barbs. Catch lots of fish!

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By Ryan Tuleja
Sep 3, 2008
standing on the summit
Mike Lane wrote:
The way you phrased that question is kind of hard to understand, but put the word "bolts" in any posting and out come the responses. The safety benefit of bolts is obviously that you have greatly lessened your chances of death. The safety problems of bolts is that they may be installed poorly, be of low quality, or be in unstable rock; and they fail which would probably result in death. As for the original rock, it is impacted for millenia. Probably far longer than petryglyphs. Petryglyphs are generally considered to be of significant religious imporatance to the culture that created them. Religion tends to deal with the issue of death. Therefore, bolts are clearly a spiritual symbol proclaiming man's ascension from the clutches of death itself. Ever since Man crawled forth out of the primordial stew and first stood on 2 legs our salvation has obviously been getting vertical. Bolts are mans way of shaking a fist to the heavens and shouting "I will not be limited to protectable features!!!". Bolt chasing may someday be viewed by future anthropologists as the pinnacle of Industrial Man's triumph over darkness and death; perhaps even the high water mark of Western Civilization itself.



Dude....we gotta get you outta the house more often!!

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By Shawn Mitchell
From Broomfield
Sep 3, 2008
Splitter Jams on the Israel/Palestine Security Wal...
Hey Ryan,

We should still catch up!. Call or email some time.

303 464 9409

senmitch@aol.com

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