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Bolt chopping

Original Post
Zac St Jules · · New Hampshire · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 1,188

I'm very ignorant on this and there isn't a wikipedia page about it so would anyone be willing to explain this phenomenon. and from what I read on MP, folks seem to forget 'Guideline #1' so i'm hesitant in even posting these questions...
...BUT... here goes:

What does it mean to 'chop bolts' and why would you want to do it?

Meme Guy · · Land of Runout Slab · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 325

To chop a bolt is to remove a bolt that's been drilled into rock. It is removed because bolts are not ethical.

Slartibartfast · · Magrathea · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 0

From Google: Ethical
1. of or relating to moral principles or the branch of knowledge dealing with these.
2. morally good or correct.
3. avoiding activities or organizations that do harm to people or the environment.

Meme Guy wrote:To chop a bolt is to remove a bolt that's been drilled into rock. It is removed because bolts are not ethical.
I'm frequently called retarded around these parts, so could you explain how bolts fit into any of these definitions, please?
Meme Guy · · Land of Runout Slab · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 325
Slartibartfast wrote:From Google: Ethical 1. of or relating to moral principles or the branch of knowledge dealing with these. 2. morally good or correct. 3. avoiding activities or organizations that do harm to people or the environment. I'm frequently called retarded around these parts, so could you explain how bolts fit into any of these definitions, please?
Listen here bookworm, mountain project defines ethics as: 1. Whatever the fuck you want provided you argue your point repeatedly without listening to anyone else's thoughts.
Zac St Jules · · New Hampshire · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 1,188

HAHAHA this is good stuff.

Jon Zucco · · Denver, CO · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 245
Meme Guy wrote:To chop a bolt is to remove a bolt that's been drilled into rock. It is removed because bolts...
...do not follow either a.) the local ethics or land use agreement of the area in which the bolts exist, b.) the ethics of the individual that first established the route (i.e. bolts added without permission from the FA to make a climb "safer" or "more accessible" than it was in the original style), or c.) the ethics of some person who decides for whatever reason that there should not be bolts on a given route.
5.samadhi Süñyātá · · asheville · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 40

I promise you that at least half the people that claim they would "CHOP THAT BOLT!" wouldn't even know how to begin going about removing an expansion bolt from the rock :)

Meme Guy · · Land of Runout Slab · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 325
5.samadhi wrote:I promise you that at least half the people that claim they would "CHOP THAT BOLT!" wouldn't even know how to begin going about removing an expansion bolt from the rock :)
Jesus Christ...it's not like its rocket science.
Eric Schwartz · · Big Sky, MT · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 45

God I hate climbers.

5.samadhi Süñyātá · · asheville · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 40
Meme Guy wrote: Jesus Christ...it's not like its rocket science.
well I did have somebody ask if you literally chop it
Slartibartfast · · Magrathea · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 0
Meme Guy wrote: Listen here bookworm, mountain project defines ethics as: 1. Whatever the fuck you want provided you argue your point repeatedly without listening to anyone else's thoughts.
Haha. Fair enough.

I'm up for a good theoretical argument any day, but, since there are people out in the real world who actually are going around destroying other peoples hard work and calling it ethical, I'd really like one of them to stand up and explain, without polemic(hey, a guy can daydream, right), exactly how bolts harm the environment and are therefore unethical.
5.samadhi Süñyātá · · asheville · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 40

that's easy dude its tradition. Done.

Locker · · Yucca Valley, CA · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 2,349
"Jesus Christ...it's not like its rocket science."

Amen and a bag of chips!
Ryan Watts · · Bishop, CA · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 25
Slartibartfast wrote: Haha. Fair enough. I'm up for a good theoretical argument any day, but, since there are people out in the real world who actually are going around destroying other peoples hard work and calling it ethical, I'd really like one of them to stand up and explain, without polemic(hey, a guy can daydream, right), exactly how bolts harm the environment and are therefore unethical.
Most of the time it has nothing to do with the environment and more to do with the way the climb is protected. If there is a bolt you can just clip it, but if there is no bolt you have to find a way to place gear if possible or just run it out.

That's pretty much what it breaks down to.
Jon Zucco · · Denver, CO · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 245
Slartibartfast wrote: Haha. Fair enough. I'm up for a good theoretical argument any day, but, since there are people out in the real world who actually are going around destroying other peoples hard work and calling it ethical, I'd really like one of them to stand up and explain, without polemic(hey, a guy can daydream, right), exactly how bolts harm the environment and are therefore unethical.
many people would argue that adding a bolt to an existing climb is destroying someone else's work or intent by altering the nature and difficulty of the original climb. in the case where one adds a bolt to an existing climb.
Slartibartfast · · Magrathea · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 0
Ryan Watts wrote: Most of the time it has nothing to do with the environment and more to do with the way the climb is protected. If there is a bolt you can just clip it, but if there is no bolt you have to find a way to place gear if possible or just run it out. That's pretty much what it breaks down to.
But why would some insist that the absence of a bolt is, by nature, better than the presence of a bolt? Why waste time and energy, while spewing vitriol, to remove a bolt that could save someone's life?
Jon Zucco · · Denver, CO · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 245
Slartibartfast wrote: But why would some insist that the absence of a bolt is, by nature, better than the presence of a bolt? Why waste time and energy, while spewing vitriol, to remove a bolt that could save someone's life?
because ethics.
Slartibartfast · · Magrathea · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 0
Jon Zucco wrote: many people would argue that adding a bolt to an existing climb is destroying someone else's work or intent by altering the nature and difficulty of the original climb. in the case where one adds a bolt to an existing climb.
I've heard that one, but can't say I understand it. What, exactly, would be "destroyed" in this case? The FA's "art"? His "vision"? I'm not saying that every route in the world should be grid bolted, but in order for something to be destroyed, it must first be created.

If we view it as art, let's talk about art. On the day he dies, Michaelangelo(or somebody famous right now. Bob Ross?), takes a steaming dump on a blank canvas and says to his family: "This is my legacy to you. This is my masterpiece." Should his family take his word for it? Should the venerate his final "painting" hanging it on their wall and in museums? No! They should say "oh. gee, thanks dad" and toss it in the trash as soon as he croaks. Whatever great things he's done, this particular piece is garbage.

So how about climbing? A respected climber has done loads to advance his sport and help his community. He has built trails and mentored n00bs. One day he puts up a new FA. He climbs 70 feet and places 4 pieces, most of them crappy ones that would barely hold body weight, but he doesn't care because it's 2 full number grades below his onsight limit. Few people will ever repeat the route because, while the moves are great and the location stunning, the pro just sucks, and the FA decides to leave the route as is.

Does his opinion equal a moral and ethical mandate for the rest of the world, just because he was first? I say no. No matter what else he has done for the community, onthis particular day and this particular climb he climbed only for himself, helped no one, and contributed nothing to the community, the world, or the environment. But, because he was first, he claims the right to decide how that specific speck of rock will be used in perpetuity. How is this different from showing up early at a crag with a big group, hanging a TR on a bunch of routes, and then saying you have priority when others show up even if you aren't currently using a route? I say it's not. Both require a childlike adherence to the concept of "dibs". Both monopolize a resource that could be better used by others. And both are selfish and egotistical.
mountainhick · · Black Hawk, CO · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 120


A tired out old war but here we go again.

mountainproject.com/scripts…

mountainproject.com/scripts…
Slartibartfast · · Magrathea · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 0

Yeah but I never said anything in those conversations, so they don't count.

Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883
Slartibartfast wrote: So how about climbing? A respected climber has done loads to advance his sport and help his community. He has built trails and mentored n00bs. One day he puts up a new FA. He climbs 70 feet and places 4 pieces, most of them crappy ones that would barely hold body weight, but he doesn't care because it's 2 full number grades below his onsight limit. Few people will ever repeat the route because, while the moves are great and the location stunning, the pro just sucks, and the FA decides to leave the route as is. Does his opinion equal a moral and ethical mandate for the rest of the world, just because he was first? I say no. No matter what else he has done for the community, onthis particular day and this particular climb he climbed only for himself, helped no one, and contributed nothing to the community, the world, or the environment. But, because he was first, he claims the right to decide how that specific speck of rock will be used in perpetuity. How is this different from showing up early at a crag with a big group, hanging a TR on a bunch of routes, and then saying you have priority when others show up even if you aren't currently using a route? I say it's not. Both require a childlike adherence to the concept of "dibs". Both monopolize a resource that could be better used by others. And both are selfish and egotistical.
Since this is an extremely rare occurrence, it really adds little to this discussion.

Bolts save lives? Hmmm. Like they are some cure for cancer.

Nobody is forced to climb any route.... ever! People are free to choose what they want to climb. Hard or easy, easy to protect or difficult to protect, very solid gear at close intervals, very solid gear at large intervals, some solid gear and some crappy gear. There are millions of combinations. Choose what is most suited for your desires and abilities. Not ever monkey gets to climb every tree.

Gyms are homogenized and pasteurized for your safety and protection and longevity of the corporation that owns. Outdoor climbing is a wide open canvass with a tremendous amount of diversity that should be preserved. But, today, many climbers get their start in the gym and are able to safely try any route regardless of skill level. Then, some head outdoors and want this same opportunity. This is one of the issues facing the climbing community today.

Some place bolts to make a route safer and more accessible to all. Some remove bolts because they change the exiting nature of a route or violate a local tradition.

Bolts do not harm the environment per se. No air pollution, water pollution, etc. But, they do alter a rock permanently in minutes that took millions of years to form. They also have a visual impact that can be seen by climbers and all users of an area, especially the ones that have not been camouflaged. Some are so shiny they can been seen a half a mile away when the Sun is just right.

Bolts should given a tremendous amount of thought and consideration before they are placed. Are they really necessary. That is the question.

With climbing growing so much in popularity, it is critical for us as a user group to do everything we can to minimize our impact as keep our conflicts and bickering to a minimum.

This topic comes up over and over again. And it will continue for generations.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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