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Black DIamond gear (protection) made in china??????
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By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Jul 30, 2012
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.

Eric Coffman wrote:
For example Apple has a factory in china (for those who dont know that often means the employees work 7 days a week, live on company property, and shop for thier necessities on company property, how do I know that you ask? My wife and I live in the Philippines where there is similar production facilities and has actual relatives in China working in that environment). Try having a dispute with your employer while living, eating, and borrowing from the company store --when you have a debt at the company store it kind of makes it hard to turn down overtime or just work 5 days and take a vacation for 2 whole days. Dont believe me? Google the employees who jumped off the building committing suicide at the Apple factory.

If you can't find some of it on google, it isn't censorship, it is because it wasn't true. IE a major news story was recalled:
News story recalled
And I quote:
"I can say now in retrospect that when Mike Daisey wouldn't give us contact information for his interpreter we should've killed the story rather than run it. we never should've broadcast this story without talking to that woman.
Instead, we trusted his word. Although he's not a journalist, we made clear to him that anything he was going to say on our show would have to live up to journalistic standards. He had to be truthful.
And he lied to us."

The problem is, as someone once put it (I forget who):
"All of the world is a big black pit and it is filled with people who are filled with $hit."
Put slightly more subtly, E.W. Rice said:
"A lie always carries a certain amount of weight with those who would like to believe it."

Parallel to that, I mention there is a recent study that follows self-reported honesty. It concluded that certain political segments and movements self-report much more ethical flexibility in telling stories... that distortion, omission and even outright lying is OK, so long as the end is met according to plan. If you need a hint about what group was found (admitted themselves) to be the least scrupulous, and cared the least about what the facts of the matter are, I can give you a few hints, and it isn't bankers.

The problem is that the people that spread shit like this like a fire never end up owning their actions, correcting the stories, or taking responsibility for spreading them. At least NPR did a whole show on how one such story was fabricated. I suppose that is the best one can do at that point.

So I guess if you want concrete evidence of how conditions really are, the example you provided has only established (on a 1-1 basis) that not only were some of the claims of prevalence unsubstantiated... but that the people making the the claims are doing exactly that... they are making them up.
It also ignores that the recent "mass suicide" (that didn't happen, it was a protest threat) was not at an Apple factory, it was at Foxconn, on an ACER line. You probably know already that ACER is NOT a US company, they are Taiwanese. It is a subcontractor for them. Foxconn is outsourced, not just off-shored. Yeah, I imagine a lot more nasty stuff is going on in the outsourced places... But I doubt BD is doing any of this to BD employees.

I'm not saying that there are no abuses in the system, but as someone who has worked extensively in overseas factories in Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, Ireland, China, and Thailand, I have not seen the problem in a company-owned (and that's several companies) facility. The company I worked for in Thailand recently paid twice the prevailing local wage, gave free medical, optical, dental and education, sold prepared good food (I ate there daily) at more or less at cost (much cheaper than at street vendors), etc... And when a dozen factory production jobs opened up, there was a line of people around the block waiting to apply. In at least that case, they love working for the US-based company as opposed to local work. They get treated better. Do they have some OT on weekends? Yes, on occasion. Does anyone do doubles? Not that I have ever heard of... The production team schedule wouldn't even make that possible. You'd be interrupting someone else's shift. More high-tech factories than not work that way. How would I know? I get sent around the world to go trouble-shoot problems for them...

PS - for my own part, I do not own or operate any Apple products, nor any tablet, smartphone, etc... but I obviously do operate electronics...


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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Jul 30, 2012
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

I know Kung Fu.
I know Kung Fu.


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By Unassigned User
Jul 30, 2012

Woah!!!! Jake I am mind blown... What if???? This could change everything. *Research research....Frown...Research* Hmmm Nothing to diprove said theory.


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By NorCalNomad
From San Francisco
Jul 31, 2012

Eric Coffman wrote:
anybody can have propaganda Nick, all I was trying to do with the manufacturing campus story was to tell the plight of the individuals who work there. I did get the story almost first hand (ok it was translated to me by my wife who was telling the story of her nephew and where his dad was when I bought lechon (a pig) for a family party when I met her family. If you can put two and two together you will realize this is a kid who is growing up without his dad (I know big deal who cares dad's are overrated). He does have someone he never sees who is putting food on the table and shoes on his feet though.


You might want to check what first hand account means...


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By 20 kN
From Hawaii
Jul 31, 2012

S.P.L.T. Image wrote:
LOL! There's way more to cost of manufacturing then simple assembly.

Of course there is, I am aware of that. Anyway, in light of some new information, I will cut them a break. Here is their financial data:

In Millions of USD (except for per share items) 12 months ending 2011-12-31 12 months ending 2010-12-31 12 months ending 2009-12-31 12 months ending 2008-12-31
Revenue 145.78 75.91 0.00 0.00

They lost money in 2008 and 2009, so I understand their move. But, had they been loaded and still decided to fire Americans, I would have stuck with my original opinion.


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By Nick Stayner
From The Magic City
Jul 31, 2012
Nick Stayner near the crux. Ryan Minton photo.

Eric Coffman wrote:
anybody can have propaganda Nick, all I was trying to do with the manufacturing campus story was to tell the plight of the individuals who work there. I did get the story almost first hand


Right... just like Mike Daisey!

That was the point of the link I posted. You really should listen to both of the TAL stories.


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By APBT1976
Jul 31, 2012
Black Dike 12/25/11

Nick Stayner wrote:
Right... just like Mike Daisey! That was the point of the link I posted. You really should listen to both of the TAL stories.


Still if a company has to move its manufacturing over seas just to stay above water that is not a solution.

What are Americans/people not getting here...

Do i blame Black Diamond no!

Is it the right decision that we have chosen as a nation to make medium to low level jobs all but obsolete, NO!!

We have plenty of Americans that will never qualify for be eligible for or maybe even want jobs in high tech the sciences so forth and so on.

That is not everyone's dream nor is it within the reaches of their reality to obtain the training needed for those types of jobs.

Also workers abroad or stateside should not be treated like slaves just so some company can turn a buck and we can have our ow so needed shit!!


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By Eric Coffman
Jul 31, 2012
mountainlion

With all due respect to posters here does anybody really think you can voice your opinion in china? How do we know if Mike Daisey isnt dead? I dont know what to think maybe I dont know what I'm talking about (I am open to that possibility). I wish everyone was open to the fact that we are all wrong often enough that we should have an open mind about the working conditions in china and elsewhere. If you dont care just say you dont care and that your buying the product based on price alone or whatever. Some of us indeed are willing to pay a fair price for our labor no matter the product. Does that make me stupid I guess so if the only thing that counts is price but I get to feel good about myself and that is worth something.


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By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Jul 31, 2012
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.

Eric,
I totally agree with your last post, but I think it's important to make decisions based on reality and not on rumor, and even more important not to propagate falsehoods. The rudder is a small part of the ship, yet it can steer its entire course. Likewise, the tongue is a small part of the body, and can manipulate thousands of men.
I, like anyone, have my opinions and don't necessarily agree with others when they present a different one. But I do like to have as many facts as possible about something before 'hanging' someone in public. It isn't always easy to be thankful when someone disabuses me of my own disinformation either.
Good on those who retain a conscience. Even better for those that have the information to rightfully act on it.


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By Eric Coffman
Jul 31, 2012
mountainlion

I agree also Tony B. and thanks for the debate. It is good to hear someone like you voice their opinion without belittling someone else's. You present good facts and reasoned thinking to support your arguement.


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By Graham Johnson
Aug 3, 2012

Interesting to see that the venerable Chouinard made cams in Korea and nobody makes a peep. Not a word. Just keep on banging that same old "made in china is bad" drum when there's no evidince (in the case of BD) to the contrary. I wonder how much BD has grown since they've moved to China and how much more money is flowing into the American economy since BD moved some production. The explosion of BD products since the move (ski boots, more skis, more packs, tents etc...) would suggest that maybe it's a fair bit.

Anybody notice that WC makes some stuff in China? CAMP too. Metolius - makes stuff in Taiwan. Petzl makes stuff in the US and italy.

I'm going to happily plug my c3's and c4s into some granite today.


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