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Black DIamond gear (protection) made in china??????
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Jul 28, 2012
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Why? overhead, gov. regs. Kenny Thompson
From Cottage grove oregon
Joined Feb 4, 2010
605 points
Jul 28, 2012
Overlooked fact - pre-single stem BD Camalots were made in Korea.

Korea!
Gunkiemike
Joined Jul 29, 2009
1,732 points
Jul 28, 2012
me
Yeah, My old Chouinard cams say U.S. Products manufactured in R.O.K. Kenny Thompson
From Cottage grove oregon
Joined Feb 4, 2010
605 points
Jul 29, 2012
mountainlion
Kenny Thompson my business failed because I am/was a poor businessman. I had a business that provided me an adequate living but very little for a rainy day (I also spent my discretionary income on climbing and outdoor activities) Anyway to make a long story short my first and most important client (Commander John H. Folsom U.S.S. McCook D-Day John wasn't the commander of the boat but a damage control officer at the time) was near death and had never had kids(he called me eho which means son in spanish). I ran my personal training business out of his house for about 7 years and as he began to die I had to put my business on hold (for about 3 months)to ensure he had the dignity he deserved and died in his own home. I was confident that my clients would return but after he died the economy started decline. In addition I decided that I wasnt going to let anything stand in the way of me having the life that I wanted and I wanted to focus more on the fun activities and less on my business. The result was a business that failed. Some regulations hindered my business but mainly it was me making a human decisions instead of business decisions and you know what I wouldnt change a thing. I am proud of my business but I am happy that I chose a life of adventure instead. Eric Coffman
Joined Jun 22, 2009
817 points
Jul 29, 2012
Or perhaps it was naivete...

All personal attacks aside local US companies are great except unfortunately they cannot compete on a large scale for reasons I named above and therefore can't have the economic impact (read:jobs) that a "evil" out-sourcing/shoring corporation does.

Specifically to us, there are some great small American made climbing companies out there but I fear that they can't compete on a larger scale because of this and can't grow beyond the few employees they do have. The US economic impact of these companies is very small compared to bigger companies that maybe outsource but probably employ more US employees then all of the small ones combined.

In a general sense capitalism is inherently exploitative, stiff competition resulting in a quest for ultra efficiency. Currently, the internet has leveled the playing field allowing small outfits to reach a larger audience more easily and allowing them to bypass at least some of the capitalistic pressure of outsourcing. Unfortunately I don't see a strong effort from these small manufacturers to take advantage of that.

If I may now return to the personal attacks; Eric perhaps if you made some better business decisions you would now be able to contribute to the US economy by earning a fair income, paying taxes and employing people. I'm happy for you and your "adventure" in the far east but as of currently outsourcing evils are having a very large US impact and you are having very little. Also, this isn't to single you out but to use you as an example for my point, we are all guilty for the ills of this country and the world.
Tradoholic
Joined Apr 17, 2004
12,482 points
Jul 29, 2012
Gear
If BD ships parts to china for assembly- Lobes springs cables and stems- why don't they just sell it as a kit and you can make your own cam. Shit I`d put it all together myself if it took $20 bucks off the cam. RockinOut
From NY, NY
Joined May 8, 2010
106 points
Jul 29, 2012
RockinOut wrote:
If BD ships parts to china for assembly- Lobes springs cables and stems- why don't they just sell it as a kit and you can make your own cam. Shit I`d put it all together myself if it took $20 bucks off the cam.


Good idea but I can see some quality control issues ;)
Tradoholic
Joined Apr 17, 2004
12,482 points
Jul 29, 2012
S.P.L.T. Image wrote:
Good idea but I can see some quality control issues ;)


LOL!

Yup! I'm sure BD's lawyers, especially the ones who deal with liability issues, would just looooooove that!
Khoi
From Vancouver, BC
Joined Oct 12, 2009
15 points
Jul 29, 2012
RockinOut wrote:
If BD ships parts to china for assembly- Lobes springs cables and stems- why don't they just sell it as a kit and you can make your own cam. Shit I`d put it all together myself if it took $20 bucks off the cam.


There might be some pricey tools involved in the assembly. Have you priced a swager lately?
Gunkiemike
Joined Jul 29, 2009
1,732 points
Jul 29, 2012
Nick Stayner near the crux. Ryan Minton photo.
For anyone who wants the other side to the Chinese Apple factory"story" Eric is baselessly depicting, here you go:
podcast.thisamericanlife.org/s...
Nick Stayner
From Billings, MT
Joined Mar 6, 2006
2,606 points
Administrator
Jul 29, 2012
SilverSnurfer wrote:
I'm not carrying a grudge against BD for moving processes to China-their primary focus was growth and they did what they felt they had to do to grow.

BD moved to China to increase their bottom line. End of story. How much cheaper did the Camalots become when they shifted over to China? Oh wait, nothing, the price dident change. So where did those savings go? They went towards a new Ferrari purchase, most likely. BD sent tons of employees home so they could increase their bottom line. They are no different than any scum crap insurance company or some other S&P 500 hell hole.
20 kN
From Hawaii
Joined Feb 2, 2009
726 points
Jul 29, 2012
Rrrrr
I'm always feeling charitable'ee, btw .. if someone was looking to send their profits for a cause. Buff Johnson
Joined Dec 19, 2005
1,499 points
Jul 30, 2012
Gunkiemike wrote:
There might be some pricey tools involved in the assembly. Have you priced a swager lately?


Yep Gunkiemike there are quite a few VERY pricy tools involved in the production. OR you could get some Gear4Rocks or Rock Empire cams and see how without those production methods things turn out ;)

20 kN wrote:
BD moved to China to increase their bottom line. End of story. How much cheaper did the Camalots become when they shifted over to China? Oh wait, nothing, the price dident change. So where did those savings go? They went towards a new Ferrari purchase, most likely. BD sent tons of employees home so they could increase their bottom line. They are no different than any scum crap insurance company or some other S&P 500 hell hole.


Not to defend them but there has been a noticeable increase in material cost and inflation since they started....


So many people commenting on this thread that don't really understand the whole manufacturing process...
NorCalNomad
From San Francisco
Joined Oct 6, 2011
116 points
Jul 30, 2012
20 kN wrote:
BD moved to China to increase their bottom line. End of story. How much cheaper did the Camalots become when they shifted over to China? Oh wait, nothing, the price dident change. So where did those savings go? They went towards a new Ferrari purchase, most likely. BD sent tons of employees home so they could increase their bottom line. They are no different than any scum crap insurance company or some other S&P 500 hell hole.


Actually, they grew the company, attracted an investor, went public, and are now actively involved in diversifying beyond their original market (e.g. their recent purchase of POC).

The bottom line is that, if people don't like BD's business model, there is absolutely nothing that they sell that can't be gotten from some other company-customers can always vote with their pocket books and some clearly already have.

Now that they have resources to work with and a clear path to growth beyond the inherent limitations of the climbing industry, I suspect that they will do o.k.
SilverSnurfer
Joined May 11, 2012
5 points
Jul 30, 2012
mountainlion
anybody can have propaganda Nick, all I was trying to do with the manufacturing campus story was to tell the plight of the individuals who work there. I did get the story almost first hand (ok it was translated to me by my wife who was telling the story of her nephew and where his dad was when I bought lechon (a pig) for a family party when I met her family. If you can put two and two together you will realize this is a kid who is growing up without his dad (I know big deal who cares dad's are overrated). He does have someone he never sees who is putting food on the table and shoes on his feet though. Eric Coffman
Joined Jun 22, 2009
817 points
Jul 30, 2012
20 kN wrote:
BD moved to China to increase their bottom line. End of story. How much cheaper did the Camalots become when they shifted over to China? Oh wait, nothing, the price dident change. So where did those savings go? They went towards a new Ferrari purchase, most likely. BD sent tons of employees home so they could increase their bottom line. They are no different than any scum crap insurance company or some other S&P 500 hell hole.


LOL! There's way more to cost of manufacturing then simple assembly. The price didn't go lower because the point was to make sure it didn't go up.

Their tactics are business 101 and nothing to ashamed of or mad at. It's too bad people have to be laid off but business' can adapt or die. Better to adapt and keep some jobs rather than die.
Tradoholic
Joined Apr 17, 2004
12,482 points
Jul 30, 2012
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "...
Eric Coffman wrote:
For example Apple has a factory in china (for those who dont know that often means the employees work 7 days a week, live on company property, and shop for thier necessities on company property, how do I know that you ask? My wife and I live in the Philippines where there is similar production facilities and has actual relatives in China working in that environment). Try having a dispute with your employer while living, eating, and borrowing from the company store --when you have a debt at the company store it kind of makes it hard to turn down overtime or just work 5 days and take a vacation for 2 whole days. Dont believe me? Google the employees who jumped off the building committing suicide at the Apple factory.

If you can't find some of it on google, it isn't censorship, it is because it wasn't true. IE a major news story was recalled:
News story recalled
And I quote:
"I can say now in retrospect that when Mike Daisey wouldn't give us contact information for his interpreter we should've killed the story rather than run it. we never should've broadcast this story without talking to that woman.
Instead, we trusted his word. Although he's not a journalist, we made clear to him that anything he was going to say on our show would have to live up to journalistic standards. He had to be truthful.
And he lied to us."

The problem is, as someone once put it (I forget who):
"All of the world is a big black pit and it is filled with people who are filled with $hit."
Put slightly more subtly, E.W. Rice said:
"A lie always carries a certain amount of weight with those who would like to believe it."

Parallel to that, I mention there is a recent study that follows self-reported honesty. It concluded that certain political segments and movements self-report much more ethical flexibility in telling stories... that distortion, omission and even outright lying is OK, so long as the end is met according to plan. If you need a hint about what group was found (admitted themselves) to be the least scrupulous, and cared the least about what the facts of the matter are, I can give you a few hints, and it isn't bankers.

The problem is that the people that spread shit like this like a fire never end up owning their actions, correcting the stories, or taking responsibility for spreading them. At least NPR did a whole show on how one such story was fabricated. I suppose that is the best one can do at that point.

So I guess if you want concrete evidence of how conditions really are, the example you provided has only established (on a 1-1 basis) that not only were some of the claims of prevalence unsubstantiated... but that the people making the the claims are doing exactly that... they are making them up.
It also ignores that the recent "mass suicide" (that didn't happen, it was a protest threat) was not at an Apple factory, it was at Foxconn, on an ACER line. You probably know already that ACER is NOT a US company, they are Taiwanese. It is a subcontractor for them. Foxconn is outsourced, not just off-shored. Yeah, I imagine a lot more nasty stuff is going on in the outsourced places... But I doubt BD is doing any of this to BD employees.

I'm not saying that there are no abuses in the system, but as someone who has worked extensively in overseas factories in Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, Ireland, China, and Thailand, I have not seen the problem in a company-owned (and that's several companies) facility. The company I worked for in Thailand recently paid twice the prevailing local wage, gave free medical, optical, dental and education, sold prepared good food (I ate there daily) at more or less at cost (much cheaper than at street vendors), etc... And when a dozen factory production jobs opened up, there was a line of people around the block waiting to apply. In at least that case, they love working for the US-based company as opposed to local work. They get treated better. Do they have some OT on weekends? Yes, on occasion. Does anyone do doubles? Not that I have ever heard of... The production team schedule wouldn't even make that possible. You'd be interrupting someone else's shift. More high-tech factories than not work that way. How would I know? I get sent around the world to go trouble-shoot problems for them...

PS - for my own part, I do not own or operate any Apple products, nor any tablet, smartphone, etc... but I obviously do operate electronics...
Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Joined Jan 1, 2001
23,587 points
Administrator
Jul 30, 2012
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after...
I know Kung Fu.
I know Kung Fu.
Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Joined Jul 30, 2011
1,147 points
Woah!!!! Jake I am mind blown... What if???? This could change everything. *Research research....Frown...Research* Hmmm Nothing to diprove said theory.
Jul 31, 2012
Eric Coffman wrote:
anybody can have propaganda Nick, all I was trying to do with the manufacturing campus story was to tell the plight of the individuals who work there. I did get the story almost first hand (ok it was translated to me by my wife who was telling the story of her nephew and where his dad was when I bought lechon (a pig) for a family party when I met her family. If you can put two and two together you will realize this is a kid who is growing up without his dad (I know big deal who cares dad's are overrated). He does have someone he never sees who is putting food on the table and shoes on his feet though.


You might want to check what first hand account means...
NorCalNomad
From San Francisco
Joined Oct 6, 2011
116 points
Administrator
Jul 31, 2012
S.P.L.T. Image wrote:
LOL! There's way more to cost of manufacturing then simple assembly.

Of course there is, I am aware of that. Anyway, in light of some new information, I will cut them a break. Here is their financial data:

In Millions of USD (except for per share items) 12 months ending 2011-12-31 12 months ending 2010-12-31 12 months ending 2009-12-31 12 months ending 2008-12-31
Revenue 145.78 75.91 0.00 0.00

They lost money in 2008 and 2009, so I understand their move. But, had they been loaded and still decided to fire Americans, I would have stuck with my original opinion.
20 kN
From Hawaii
Joined Feb 2, 2009
726 points
Jul 31, 2012
Nick Stayner near the crux. Ryan Minton photo.
Eric Coffman wrote:
anybody can have propaganda Nick, all I was trying to do with the manufacturing campus story was to tell the plight of the individuals who work there. I did get the story almost first hand


Right... just like Mike Daisey!

That was the point of the link I posted. You really should listen to both of the TAL stories.
Nick Stayner
From Billings, MT
Joined Mar 6, 2006
2,606 points
Jul 31, 2012
Black Dike 12/25/11
Nick Stayner wrote:
Right... just like Mike Daisey! That was the point of the link I posted. You really should listen to both of the TAL stories.


Still if a company has to move its manufacturing over seas just to stay above water that is not a solution.

What are Americans/people not getting here...

Do i blame Black Diamond no!

Is it the right decision that we have chosen as a nation to make medium to low level jobs all but obsolete, NO!!

We have plenty of Americans that will never qualify for be eligible for or maybe even want jobs in high tech the sciences so forth and so on.

That is not everyone's dream nor is it within the reaches of their reality to obtain the training needed for those types of jobs.

Also workers abroad or stateside should not be treated like slaves just so some company can turn a buck and we can have our ow so needed shit!!
APBT1976
Joined Nov 8, 2011
281 points
Jul 31, 2012
mountainlion
With all due respect to posters here does anybody really think you can voice your opinion in china? How do we know if Mike Daisey isnt dead? I dont know what to think maybe I dont know what I'm talking about (I am open to that possibility). I wish everyone was open to the fact that we are all wrong often enough that we should have an open mind about the working conditions in china and elsewhere. If you dont care just say you dont care and that your buying the product based on price alone or whatever. Some of us indeed are willing to pay a fair price for our labor no matter the product. Does that make me stupid I guess so if the only thing that counts is price but I get to feel good about myself and that is worth something. Eric Coffman
Joined Jun 22, 2009
817 points
Jul 31, 2012
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "...
Eric,
I totally agree with your last post, but I think it's important to make decisions based on reality and not on rumor, and even more important not to propagate falsehoods. The rudder is a small part of the ship, yet it can steer its entire course. Likewise, the tongue is a small part of the body, and can manipulate thousands of men.
I, like anyone, have my opinions and don't necessarily agree with others when they present a different one. But I do like to have as many facts as possible about something before 'hanging' someone in public. It isn't always easy to be thankful when someone disabuses me of my own disinformation either.
Good on those who retain a conscience. Even better for those that have the information to rightfully act on it.
Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Joined Jan 1, 2001
23,587 points


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