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Black DIamond gear (protection) made in china??????
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By jon jugenheimer
From Madison
Aug 27, 2007
hi
Any truth to this???? It's a rumor I just heard, that BD will make their pro in china starting next summer. Yes, their skis and softgoods are already made their (or other place overseas). I don't know about you, but I Don't mind paying a few extra bucks for my climbing gear to be made in America. China cant even make children's toy's right (lead paint, ect) If this is true this will definitely influence my future gear decisions......say it aint so

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By AGH
Aug 27, 2007
Take this with a grain of salt since I found this via a quick Google search. Scroll down to the fifth review:
buzzillions.com/prd-10585-blac...

Here's what the reviewer said, if you can't follow the link:

"I got a set of C4 from #0.4 to #3 recently. Surprisingly, three of them, #.75, #1 and #2, were made in China. Moreover, one of the lobes on #2 would not extend to full open. I emailed Black Diamond and got this back.
"C4s are being manufactured in both Salt Lake City and China right now.
Note: Our facility in China is a BLACK DIAMOND staffed and operated manufacturing facility, not an outsourced vendor."
What a shot. If it is not an outsourcing, what is it? I decided to return all of them and would not buy any C4 anymore, if they are made in China."

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By AGH
Aug 27, 2007
...and MEC already lists their C4s as being made in China.

So I'll take the bait: Is it concerns about QC or patriotism that lead you to want to buy cams from the good ol' USA? Cuz, you know, Aliens are made in the USA.

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By Rob T
Aug 27, 2007
if you want more info(albeit a little lite on the specifics) look to the website; bdel.com/about/press.php

more importantly, if this really bugs you, contact them about it. i know BD has made changes for better and worse over the years due to customer imput. here's a chance to change something you care about.

bdel.com/contact.php

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By Daniel Crescenzo
Aug 27, 2007
Crux?
The unfortunate reality of being one of the top climbing manufacturers in the industry is this one reality. This is the only way to keep up with demand in the outdoor industry when you reach a certain level of productivity. In your research you should find out what is being made in china. Are they manufacturing and assembling the entire unit; are they shipping parts there to be assembled; are they having parts made there and shipped here to be assembled? But most importantly: are they testing the devices here or there? BD has a good reputation for quality and durability. Don't kill them for doing what it takes to keep costs down, I doubt they are doing it recklessly.

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By Daniel Crescenzo
Aug 27, 2007
Crux?
Dave Holliday wrote:
I heard that Black Diamond is no longer going to anodize their gear but will instead use leaded paint on it. Only the stuff manufactured in China, anyway.

C'mon Dave these aren't Tickle Me Elmos.
They will still be anodized, they save the lead paint for the kiddies in China.

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By Daniel Crescenzo
Aug 27, 2007
Crux?
Aaron Hubbell wrote:
...and MEC already lists their C4s as being made in China. So I'll take the bait: Is it concerns about QC or patriotism that lead you to want to buy cams from the good ol' USA? Cuz, you know, Aliens are made in the USA.
Damn good point bro. I sent an inquiry to BD about the extent of their overseas dealings, hopefully it's not some guarded secret and I'll get an answer back soon. I'll post what I find here.

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By Matt Nelson
From Pueblo, CO
Aug 27, 2007
Me rappin...
I think it will influence my gear choices...

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By mike1
Aug 27, 2007
I have a few things to say here:
1) If it is a black diamond facility are they paying the same wages they are here ? I have not seen the price go down. If we are going to exploit other people let's get a price break ! That's capitalism baby.

2) If you want to see if yours was made in China look for the -@ on the production code. I bet they change this soon. They have been mixing production for the last 4 or 5 months.

3) What happens in shipping. If they go by boat will they rust a bit ? Have they rusted a bit and then they are cleaned when they get here

4) I have always been a devoted black diamond cam fan( except the 2 smallest micro-camalots- they twist during placement) but this is B.S. My guess is they will find that they can not reliably make a good product in China and bring it back. I will also make a guess that the headaches finding "real" raw materials will be a big part of it.

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By Daniel Crescenzo
Aug 27, 2007
Crux?
My theory (and I am waiting to clarify this through BD) is that they are shipping parts there for assembly.

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By Jimn Seiler
From North Platte, NE
Aug 27, 2007
Disco Superfly
Note: Our facility in China is a BLACK DIAMOND staffed and operated manufacturing facility, not an outsourced vendor."

Sweet that's all I need to hear. I'm just kidding by the way. is it staffed and operated by Black Diamond employees who happen to all be Chinese and the supervisors are 16 and the workers are 8? Or did they move a bunch of their workers over to China to manufacture cams there? That is the only way I can see they can claim it's not an outsourced vendor.

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By Buff Johnson
Aug 27, 2007
smiley face
Holy shit, my earth-friendly hybrid car (which still uses gas by the way) is made in Japan. How could I ever trust my life to it??? & my coffee maker, and my whatever.


Man, you want to talk about a crisis, how bout all the weed that gets imported. How come no-one's bitching about that!!??

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By A.P.T.
From Truckee,Ca
Aug 27, 2007
So nice.
DAMN WEED! That stuff gives ya' the "Munchies" and "High Cholesterol" from all the junk food you eat... Never know what your smoking from imported weed. Poisonous spray contaminates used for Eradication purposes is a scary thing. Sorry this is a bit off topic!

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By Umph!
Aug 27, 2007
Among businessmen (and politicians) "capitalism" is the current term for "To hell with our children".

I don't call it patriotism, I call it common sense: ship the jobs overseas for cheaper labor, and you ship a bit of America with it, as well as a bit of quality.
BD certainly didn't need to go there, they wanted to.
Simple.
(And like many others before them, they will lose my business, to the best of my ability).

But then, the bastards are probably just taking jobs away from illegal immigrants, rather than working Americans.

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By Jim Amidon
Aug 27, 2007
J TREE
As the product grows and spreads the decision comes to either keep moving along at a steady pace, or take off like a rocket.

With a strong marketing plan they will absorb more than what leaves and capitalism will win out again.......

Smile, bend over and say the pledge to the country, it's America babay !!!!

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By Old and Busted
From Centennial, CO
Aug 27, 2007
Stabby
Illegals losing their jobs to overseas labor is already happening. As are factories that left here for Mexico are now going to China and India too. Its all about the fact that the only thing America does well now aside from Space and Weaponry is "Financial Engineering." It is not profitable to have Americans work for you. There is a really big meltdown looming out there. Since I am a Libertarian/Bolshevek, I kinda look forward to it.

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By Cultivating Mass
Aug 27, 2007
Leading on the only "fair means" rack.
Let's hear what some of the BD folk have to say before we start burning the witch. Maria Cranor? Bill Belcourt? What's the party line folks?

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By Cpt. E
Aug 27, 2007
commies suck. always have. i always figured that BD would keep it home-grown and locally-made. i'm dissapointed and left feeling like i don't pay enough attention to where i throw my money. while it's pretty much impossible to avoid all the chi-comm products out there, i can sure as hell buy gear that is built by people who share my idea of what basic human values consist of. I don't dig firing squads w/out due process, mass-abortion, education camps, etc., and i really don't like it when i find out that a company i've always been a fan of apparently compromised themselves a long time ago by having their products made by these murderous fucks.

gear purchases are about the only 'things' i buy that i really put any thought to. i might not have the time to see where every pair of tenny's or box of tampons are coming from and then into my home, but i do take note of some things.

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By mtoensing
From Boulder
Aug 27, 2007
Props to my home state show
i am an avid climber and just started my first college classes today. we need to be more enviromentally friendly no matter what the cost. it shouldn't be about profit anymore for bussinesses but how we can still enjoy the sport of clim bing and have little impact on our planet.

maybe we can get BD to stop thinking about saving money in china, and make our gear in the states with an alternative source of energy. this might in turn have our gear be cheaper one day and might create some jobs here. i wouldn't mind working there and i'm sure a lot of you out there would love that job also.

anyone agree?

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By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Aug 27, 2007
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.
People seem to not understand the difference between "outsources" and "overseas." There is a real difference.
If it is outsourced, then someone is paying another company do produce or assemble their product. If it is overseas, then the company is doing the production in a fully owned factory under their control that makes only their own products.
I work in the computer hardware industry. I've seen both. For those of you that don't understand that there is a difference: Trust me, there are some. Maybe it's not the difference you care about, but it is why they do bother to mention it.
As for ISO9000... so 1980's. All that means is that you follow your written proceedures and it's all documented. If you document a crappy process, and follow your documents, you can still be certified. There are interesting studies about ISO9001 and actual quality that imply that it is not a huge help. Still, if BD has a really good process, that's better than just running amuck, which can happen without control.
I've seen it.
Am I more concerned about quality when I know its made in China? Yes. But (F)Aliens are all made in the USA by non-capitolists. So I'm not joining the lynch mob yet. The BS going on here makes it pretty hard to run a company or production here. I laugh about all teh feel good laws people pass- I hear jobs disappearing with each well-intended vote.

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By Matt Nelson
From Pueblo, CO
Aug 28, 2007
Me rappin...
I never used BD anyways so maybe I will go for Alien more than Metolius now... Who knows...?

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By Daniel Crescenzo
Aug 28, 2007
Crux?
All I've to say, take a look at some of the stuff you own... tell me where it's made? Not everyone's a saint, but suck it up..b/c you know what? Not everyone's a sinner either. Let BD say their piece before y'all decide to take a dump on them.

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By AGH
Aug 28, 2007
Daniel Crescenzo wrote:
All I've to say, take a look at some of the stuff you own... tell me where it's made? Not everyone's a saint, but suck it up..b/c you know what? Not everyone's a sinner either. Let BD say their piece before y'all decide to take a dump on them.


I gotta agree with Daniel here. Let's not pretend that the US is perfect. US companies don't do harm to the environment? The US gov't doesn't have a horrifying human rights record (look at the mid/late 1800s and oh, I dunno, the last 6 yrs)? The US doesn't pursue a murderous foreign policy (gee, any villages in Afghanistan or Iraq obliterated lately)? Gimme a f-ing break.

"Made in China" DOES NOT NECESSARILY mean it's evil. Where a thing is made is just part of the equation. I like to give my cash to the local guy just as much as everyone else does; but I don't pretend that the simple fact that a thing is made in the US means it is an ethical purchase. Maybe BD is doing the right thing in China; really making a difference in people's lives and acting as a corporate role model to other "outsourcing" firms.

I look at CiloGear as a good example. This is a dude building packs out of his apartment in Brooklyn -- amazing packs. But he does a lot of assembly in Turkey. Is this "bad outsourcing?" I don't think so, based on this: cilogear.com/ethics.html

Having said all this I do hope that BD take the time to explain moving manufacturing to China. It will be nice if there is some transparency.

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By John Calder
From Spokane, WA
Aug 28, 2007
Me
Aaron, how can you possibly compare the United States to China? You are right in that we are not perfect, no one is. But the US does not intentionaly kill innocent people. We don't imprison and torture missionaries for attempting to push their religion on our people. We don't wage extermination campaigns against people in our own nation because we don't agree with their beliefs.

If you don't like the current regime in America you are free to speak about it. If you tried to post the above about, and in China you could very well be taken outside and shot. In the US we have only to wait for the next election to affect change, but that is not the case in China

America has some bad spots in our past (our treatment of native americans), but our trangressions are nowhere near the scale of the Chinese.

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By AGH
Aug 28, 2007
I wasn't saying the US and China are the same, John. I was showing that the "China does bad stuff so we shouldn't buy from them" argument can be held against the US as well. But believe me, I think that all things considered I'll still take the US over anywhere else in the world!

I was trying to illustrate that boiling this complicated issue down to "Made in China = bad, Made in USA = good" is a total oversimplification. Each nation has its complexities and positives/negatives. All things being equal I do all I can to purchase products made in the US. But all things are rarely equal. The ethics of the firm, how they treat their workers, what they do with their money; all that should ideally play into how I make my purchasing decisions.

Trust me -- I have very serious issues with the Chinese government and how they handle themselves in our world. But I'm not going to totally boycott a company ONLY because they moved some manufacturing over there. The issue is bigger than that. I'd like to hear from BD regarding their thoughts and rationale on this.

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By Cpt. E
Aug 28, 2007
MADE IN CHINA= MADE BY COMMUNISTS
  • ***
this fact is not over-simplified....but its importance has been watered down over the past 20 yrs.

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