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By Sunny-D
From SLC, Utah
Oct 7, 2011
Top of Jah-Man Sister Superior

So I keep seeing people suggest that you should never connect a biner to another biner directly. With that said what is the reasoning behind this philosophy?
Dallen


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By Evan1984
Oct 7, 2011

I don't subscribe to the "never" argument.

Actually it is a common guide tactic to clip a big locker to the master point of the anchor for several people to clip into. It's especially handy when using a sliding x or equallette.

The two major reasons why people say its not good are:
1. Unless they are both locking, they can twist against eachother and unclip.
2. If they orient oddly, they can leverage each other and place weird forces on the biner.


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By BASE99999
Oct 7, 2011

Biner on Biner

It is unnecessary.

It is dangerous.

They can unclip from each other if they get a little twisted. Try is out. Chain some biners and see how fast they unclip when you twist them up.


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By Evan1984
Oct 7, 2011

BASE1361 wrote:
Biner on Biner It is unnecessary. It is dangerous. They can unclip from each other if they get a little twisted. Try is out. Chain some biners and see how fast they unclip when you twist them up.



I should clarify. I agree that it is generally unnecessary.


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By Stich
From Colorado Springs, Colorado
Oct 7, 2011
Coffee after freezing our asses off near James Peak.

I was climbing at Red Rocks Open Space and someone "fixed" my anchor by putting one of my quickdraws biner-to-biner to extend it. It unclipped and I was then on one quickdraw. It surprised me, too. So don't do it.

It is only safe if you are aiding and the weight is constantly on the biners. The problem lies in them flapping around on each other. See? Flapping things always leads to trouble.


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By bearbreeder
Oct 7, 2011

some 5.15 newb clipping linked draws ... i think hes dating some spanish chick



some 5.14 trad bum doing the deadly binah on binah ... i think he did the FA of some super easy crack named after a cobra ...



i dont do it myself ... but id love to be a fly on the wall when some MPers go tell these bums they are gonna die ;)


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By Jim Amidon
Oct 7, 2011
What ??

Depending on the type of biner you are increasing the chance of gate open failure, and cross loading which could result in a failure.

Having a locking master biner with additional lockers attached has little risk as you have all closed loops......

With non lockers to non lockers, you always increase the chance of a gate open failure.......

just my .02 cents.........


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By LeeAB
Administrator
From ABQ, NM
Oct 7, 2011
Once we landed we headed to Font to find a place to stay for the night before doing a day of wine tasting and heading to Buoux.

In the situation of the 5.14 and up climber, they are probably doing it because it is faster and easier than putting the draw into the sling on the piece of gear, which does not make it the right practice (of course I'm also shocked that they don't have the gear racked in order on the right sling on the proper side of their harness before starting out). People skip bolts all the time when they are pushing their limits on routes, it really is not much different. It is still more likely to fail, though how likely is it to fail is up for interpretation and I don't really think anyone is going to go out and try to test it.

However taking a short cut when setting up a rappel seems silly, it is not like the pump clock is running and your going to pitch if you don't get it set up super fast (obviously avalanche danger or something could be an argument here). Anyway, most situations where people clip biner to biner they are just doing it for convenience and it is less safe.

Dostol, if you are worried about breaking a sling you need to retire it, without cutting it, you should be unable to break a sling while rappelling or falling for that matter, at least without causing irreparable damage to yourself. On another note, I've seen lockers come unlocked from bumping and such while I've never seen a sewn runner open up.


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By bearbreeder
Oct 10, 2011

note that in both photos above, the draws were prehung ... they could easily have used a sling ... pump has nothing to do with it

like i said i dont do it myself, except with lockers and a masterpoint ... but im not about to go tell people they are gonna die either ;)


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By Woodchuck ATC
Oct 10, 2011
Rock Wars, RRG, 2008

Opening gates, metal torque, those are the main reasons not to. I do recall seeing some quickdraw clip extentions done 'biner to biner since sporties often do not carry any long slings to lengthen a needed clip. Temp fix, but don't to it at the anchor point when bringing up your second to clip in.


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By Woodchuck ATC
Oct 10, 2011
Rock Wars, RRG, 2008

dostol wrote:
I'm a noob, only TR'd so far so I don't have sport or trad experience, but i have a related question: In the case of quick-draws, could you take off one biner and just use the dog-bone and biner to extend the 1st quick-draw?


Definately OK. I carry a couple like that along with trad gear, in case the original cam or nut sling isn't long enough. Saves a biner and does not compromise the safety. Leave the 'loose' end of dogbone open for that extra clip; keep a biner in the 'tight' end of dogbone.


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By Graham S
From Riverside, CA
Oct 10, 2011
Mt. Whitney

bearbreeder wrote:
some 5.15 newb clipping linked draws ... i think hes dating some spanish chick some 5.14 trad bum doing the deadly binah on binah ... i think he did the FA of some super easy crack named after a cobra ... i dont do it myself ... but id love to be a fly on the wall when some MPers go tell these bums they are gonna die ;)



Yeah, those guys are rookies for sure! Trotter has man parts made from carbon titanium...


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By Peter Franzen
Administrator
From Phoenix, AZ
Oct 10, 2011
Belay

dostol wrote:
I'm a noob, only TR'd so far so I don't have sport or trad experience, but i have a related question: In the case of quick-draws, could you take off one biner and just use the dog-bone and biner to extend the 1st quick-draw?

Yeah, that's fine. I do that regularly and it's actually pretty easy to do while on a route if you have a good stance.


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By Scott O
From California
Oct 10, 2011
Batman Pinnacle

I'm not sure I've ever seen a big wall anchor that didn't feature a biner on biner connection.


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By NickinCO
From colorado
Oct 10, 2011
after the hard stuff, into cruiser hands.

as long as they're lockers no big deal. It's perfectly acceptable in the rope access community also as long as you don't clip more than 3 in a row.


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By andrewc
Oct 10, 2011

dostol wrote:
Ah right. I posted on another thread about adding a locker to extend my rappell device 6 inches, so it would be out of reach of the autoblock. Seems logical; 25kn vs less than 17kn. However, I could definately see non-lockers twisting and unlatching under the right conditions. Clears it up. All the same, I think I'm all right with my locking biner set-up.


dostol wrote:
Freedom of the hills recommends some biner to biner configurations in the rappelling chapter, for example. Especially lockers, as I posted.


Dostol,
I think you need to reread FOTH. It doesn't say quite what you think it does (unless you have the 2nd edition or something). It actually says to use a double length runner knotted in half. The runner is then girth hitched to your harness. Locking carbiner #1 is clipped to the loop nearest you along with your rappel device. Locker #2 is clipped in the far loop and is used to temporarily attach yourself to rappel stations while getting ready to rappel.

At no point are two carabiners clipped together. Yes it would work, and you probably won't die. But like Lee said, its totally unnecessary and you should do everything possible to make rappelling as safe and idiot proof as possible.

Trying to learn straight from the FOTH is tricky as it reads like stereo instructions. Its a good book to refresh your memory after learning something in person from a knowledgeable source.


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By LeeAB
Administrator
From ABQ, NM
Oct 11, 2011
Once we landed we headed to Font to find a place to stay for the night before doing a day of wine tasting and heading to Buoux.

dostol wrote:
After some consideration and research, I want to add that from a safety standpoint, Lee, I think your reply is exactly wrong. Freedom of the hills recommends some biner to biner configurations in the rappelling chapter, for example. Especially lockers, as I posted. However, to paraphrase your reply, it's ok to put quick-draws together as long as you're climbing above your level and fatigued enough to warrant the dangerous short cut to proper technique. After all, people skip bolts all the time. In my humble opinion, it's fair to point out that you poo-pooed the proper, safe practice, and justified the dangerous practice. Your post, taken as a safe recommendation from an administrator, could lead to someone getting hurt.


NO, I was not saying it was safe or necessarily OK. Only that people make decisions where they are giving up some level of safety for a better chance at success. If you need to improve your chance at success rappelling and you want to do something less safe to achieve it, that is fine.

Yes, I have skipped bolts, knowing full well that I would take a bigger fall if I were to come off. I personally don't clip quick draws together as shown, at least not that I can remember and it is something that reduces the level of safety more than I would like.

I don't own Mountaineering FH so I can't comment on what you read about recommending clipping two biners together.


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By Derek W
Oct 11, 2011
First summit of First Flatiron

I say it is ok in a relatively static situation (at an anchor).

I say its not ok in a dynamic situation (clipped into pro).


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By shoo
From Boston, Massachusetts
Oct 11, 2011
Rock wars, Red River Gorge

dostol wrote:
I'm a noob, only TR'd so far so I don't have sport or trad experience, but i have a related question: In the case of quick-draws, could you take off one biner and just use the dog-bone and biner to extend the 1st quick-draw?


More commonly, just leave the 'biner there and clip straight into the dogbone. The bolt side of a dogbone typically has plenty of extra room for that second 'biner, and the free hanging one doesn't really interfere with anything. Faster and easier than constantly reorganizing your 'draws, and no 'biner on 'biner nastiness.

I can't seem to find picture of this anywhere, but illustrated this below to the best of my ability. Not sure if it makes sense, but like Kilgore Trout, I tried.

 
(B) <-bolt side carabiner, clipped to bolt
| <-dogbone (DB)
B'R <-bolt 'biner to both DBs, rope 'biner only to upper DB
| <-dogbone (DB)
-R- <-rope side carabiner


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By LeeAB
Administrator
From ABQ, NM
Oct 11, 2011
Once we landed we headed to Font to find a place to stay for the night before doing a day of wine tasting and heading to Buoux.

shoo wrote:
More commonly, just leave the 'biner there and clip straight into the dogbone. The bolt side of a dogbone typically has plenty of extra room for that second 'biner, and the free hanging one doesn't really interfere with anything. Faster and easier than constantly reorganizing your 'draws, and no 'biner on 'biner nastiness. I can't seem to find picture of this anywhere, but illustrated this below to the best of my ability. Not sure if it makes sense, but like Kilgore Trout, I tried. (B) <-bolt side carabiner, clipped to bolt | <-dogbone (DB) B'R <-bolt 'biner to both DBs, rope 'biner only to upper DB | <-dogbone (DB) -R- <-rope side carabiner


If you do this, just be sure to use the rope end biner to attache the two draws. The bolt end biner will have burrs on it from the bolt hangers and could cause more damage to the sling. Take a look at your rope end biners, the upper part that gets weighted on the STEEL bolt hanger will be chewed up a bit with ridges, at least if you've ever wighted it.


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By climber73
From Fort Collins, CO
Oct 11, 2011
Belaying at Ouray

does anyone have test data on biner-to-biner connections? this doesn't seem all that much different from biner-to-bolt.


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By Gunkiemike
Oct 20, 2011

climber73 wrote:
does anyone have test data on biner-to-biner connections? this doesn't seem all that much different from biner-to-bolt.


Since biners are pull tested between metal pins*, I think it's safe to say that the rated strength are indicative on biner-to-biner loading.

  • I'm not sure the destructive testing is done this way, but I know OP tests every biner to a significant fraction of the rated strength; you can see the impressions left by the test pins. If UIAA biner testing is in fact between pins, then a more relevant question would be how they test when loaded by a sling.

I'm not aware of any biner-to-bolt hanger pull tests. But I'm no expert in the field of gear testing.


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By Jim Titt
From Germany
Oct 21, 2011

Gunkiemike wrote:
Since biners are pull tested between metal pins*, I think it's safe to say that the rated strength are indicative on biner-to-biner loading. * I'm not sure the destructive testing is done this way, but I know OP tests every biner to a significant fraction of the rated strength; you can see the impressions left by the test pins. If UIAA biner testing is in fact between pins, then a more relevant question would be how they test when loaded by a sling. I'm not aware of any biner-to-bolt hanger pull tests. But I'm no expert in the field of gear testing.


Both karabiners and slings are tested between 10mm pins, there is no test for sling/karabiner, karabiner/bolt hanger etc since the standards are for individual pieces of equipment not combinations. Since the manufacturers have no control over how gear is combined this is the correct (and only workable)system.

The compatability between the various equipment types is set by the design standards (thickness, corner radii and so on) and is established by testing when the standards are written.

The manufacturers have a vested interest in their reputation and at the design stage will be testing for any incompatability that might occur in normal use but climbers are expected to be aware (and will be warned in the instructions) that using equipment outside the established system may be fatal, for example threading the rope direct through a plate hanger (in this case the system calls for a connector to be used).

There are thousands of tests of karabiners to bolt hangers performed every day anyway by falling climbers which is the other basis on which the standards are established, historic evidence. In other words experience tells us the standards for the two pieces of gear work together satifactorily.


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