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Best webbing to use for alpine draws?
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By Arthur E
From Madison, WI
Apr 28, 2012
In the past I've made alpine draws with various lengths of 1" tubular nylon webbing, but I just got some fancy new biners that are a little too small to hold the 1" webbing without it bulking up a little bit. This is really just a ease-of-use problem because it makes it a little more difficult to shorten the draw by tripling up the runner.

I'm wondering if it would be legit to start using 9/16" webbing for the same purpose. FOTH says that 9/16" is just fine, but I notice that the runners on most pre-made quickdraws are rated to 22kN whereas Bluewater 9/16" webbing is only rated to 9kN. Spectra and Dyneema are not options because I will be tying the runners myself.

Any thoughts? What do you guys use for long/weird length draws?

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By Keenan Waeschle
From Bozeman, MT
Apr 28, 2012
on top of the RNWF June 2012
This post violated Rule #1. It has been removed by Mountain Project.

By jack s.
From Kamloops, BC
Apr 28, 2012
Mean Green P2
Edelrid Tech webbing if you are planning to tie the knot instead of using a sewn runner. It is a dyneema/ nylon combination designed to be tied in knots without the bulk of nylon. You may be able to find it at MEC or you can phone order it out of the climbing shop in Canmore. I doubt you'll find it from a US retailer.

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By Bowens
From Carlsbad, CA
Apr 28, 2012
New Yosemite
Arthur E wrote:
In the past I've made alpine draws with various lengths of 1" tubular nylon webbing, but I just got some fancy new biners that are a little too small to hold the 1" webbing without it bulking up a little bit. This is really just a ease-of-use problem because it makes it a little more difficult to shorten the draw by tripling up the runner. I'm wondering if it would be legit to start using 9/16" webbing for the same purpose. FOTH says that 9/16" is just fine, but I notice that the runners on most pre-made quickdraws are rated to 22kN whereas Bluewater 9/16" webbing is only rated to 9kN. Spectra and Dyneema are not options because I will be tying the runners myself. Any thoughts? What do you guys use for long/weird length draws?


At 9kN per quick draw, you are adding an element that is weaker than most of your pieces of protection; given webbing strength decreases with knots and exposure, I would not feel very comfortable with that margin. Do you REALLY not want to use sewn runners? From an "ease-of-use" perspective, using anything but sewn runners is vastly inferior.

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By john strand
From southern colo
Apr 28, 2012
Just get some 11/16" x 24" runners and double them

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By Leeroy
Apr 28, 2012
9/16 webbing is fine.

But I can't think of a single advantage tied slings have over sewn ones. Unless of course you like slings that are bulky, heavier, weaker, and just generally a big pain in the ass with knots that you have to keep checking because they can come untied. I guess webbing is a bit cheaper.

Knotting a sling is introducing a weak point into your system as well. Sometimes it's gotta be done but it's best avoided if the possibility of a high FF is possible. Slings usually fail at the knot during testing and that may be part of the reason the webbing you referred to is only rated at 9kn. Since the manufacturer know that the only way it will be used is with knots in it.

I know, I know. You're not gonna die if you do this but considering the advantages I'm always amazed that people tie their own slings and runners.

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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Apr 28, 2012
El Chorro
Leeroy wrote:
9/16 webbing is fine. But I can't think of a single advantage tied slings have over sewn ones. Unless of course you like slings that are bulky, heavier, weaker, and just generally a big pain in the ass with knots that you have to keep checking because they can come untied. I guess webbing is a bit cheaper.


+1

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By alpinejason
From Eau Claire
Apr 28, 2012
I agree with the assessment that you should probably just buy sewn runners. The skinny dyneema slings reduce a lot of bulk. 9kN webbing strength is a single strand, once you tie it in a loop you get twice that (18kN +/-), less the weakness created from the knot itself.

Not much alpine in Wisco. but thanks for asking!

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By john strand
From southern colo
Apr 28, 2012
Fish has 24" x 5/8" slings for $3.50. Also 50' of 1/2" supertape for $12..not bad

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By Greg D
From Here
Apr 28, 2012
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W.
Lead falls rarely exceed 7kN with atc like devices because of slippage at the device. So the 9/16 would be fine. But sewn runners come in all kinds of lengths. Tying your own simply is not worth the few bucks you will save.

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By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Apr 28, 2012
webbing rated at 9kn translates to a tied sling that's rated to around 16kn or so (9kn + 9kn - 2kn for the knot). so, 9/16 is fine.

the Edelrid tech webbing is pretty sweet, though, as it comes in either spoons or sewn runners, and even tied its rated to 22kn.

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By Greg D
From Here
Apr 28, 2012
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W.
John Wilder wrote:
webbing rated at 9kn translates to a tied sling that's rated to around 16kn or so (9kn + 9kn - 2kn for the knot). so, 9/16 is fine. the Edelrid tech webbing is pretty sweet, though, as it comes in either spoons or sewn runners, and even tied its rated to 22kn.


Yes 9 + 9 is 18. But knots reduce strength by 25-60% for what is worth.

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By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Apr 28, 2012
Greg D wrote:
Yes 9 + 9 is 18. But knots reduce strength by 25-60% for what is worth.


Sorry, wasn't up to using google. 10 seconds shows that the Water knot is 65% efficient, which would translate to roughly a 12kn strength for a tied sling of 9/16" webbing. good enough, but again, the Edelrid stuff is better because it rates at 22kn even when tied.

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By chris7
From San Diego, CA
Apr 28, 2012
Belaying
Misty Mountain has some great 9/16 slings. They are sewn and are made of nylon which I like a lot.

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By Allen Corneau
From Houston, TX
Apr 29, 2012
Arthur E wrote:
What do you guys use for long/weird length draws?


I personally use the BW Titan slings (nice compromise of strength/weight/durability) in three sizes: 12", 24", and 48". I also make my cordalette so it's ~96" (twice the size of a 48" sling).

A few other options for longer draws:

Metolius Long Draws up to 20" long.

Yates Rabbit Runners come in 4', 5', 6', 8', 10', and 12' lengths

Mountain Tools Webolette in 10', 12', or 14' long

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By agd
Apr 29, 2012
alaska
John Wilder wrote:
webbing rated at 9kn translates to a tied sling that's rated to around 16kn or so (9kn + 9kn - 2kn for the knot). so, 9/16 is fine. the Edelrid tech webbing is pretty sweet, though, as it comes in either spoons or sewn runners, and even tied its rated to 22kn.


Can someone explain the physics behind the fact that creating a loop doubles the strength of a single strand? Never quite understood that one.

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By Dobson
From Butte, MT
Apr 29, 2012
alexdavis wrote:
Can someone explain the physics behind the fact that creating a loop doubles the strength of a single strand? Never quite understood that one.


It doesn't so much double the strength, it actually just halves the load. Because there are two strands bearing the load, each one sees half the tension.

This is most true in a perfect, no friction situation. If you were to, say, clove hitch your biners to the sling, so that only one strand gets loaded, you'd be back to single-stand strength.

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By iceman777
From Colorado Springs
Apr 29, 2012
0
Geez
Just buy some sewn runners . Or sew your own you don't need a bar tacker just a good heavy duty needle n thread . I've made some n pull tested with my jeep n have no problem using them ( your wife or gf might get a little pissed as it can fuck up a cheap machine so be ready to buy her a new better machine)

OR
You can tie them using a beer knot, less bulky n just as strong n if you soak it n water after tying they sinch up good n tight like German virgin ! But can still be untied if need be.

But for me I'll ether buy or sew my own .

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By sanz
From Raleigh, NC
Apr 29, 2012
One of my first trad climbs, Ooga Chocka at Crowde...
Its all about the Mammut dyneema slings - 8mm wide! You can find them for about 6 bucks.

Considering all the other stuff we climbers spend $$ on, 50 or 60 bucks for skinny slings is not bad, considering how much bulk this will take off your rack compared to nylon, especially tied nylon.

Make your draws and switch your racking biners with Nano 23s and you will start floating!

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By Greg D
From Here
Apr 29, 2012
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W.
Dobson wrote:
each one sees half the tension. .


The tension is the same throughout the sling.

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By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Apr 29, 2012
iceman777 wrote:
Or sew your own you don't need a bar tacker just a good heavy duty needle n thread . I've made some n pull tested with my jeep n have no problem using them ( your wife or gf might get a little pissed as it can fuck up a cheap machine so be ready to buy her a new better machine)


This is so wrong, I don't even know where to start. Yes, you do need a bartacker, and you also need to know how to use that bartacker correctly in order to sew a sling such that it will reach the 22kn strength. Who knows what your home-sewn slings will actually hold- that you're trusting your life to them is lunacy.

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By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Apr 29, 2012
alexdavis wrote:
Can someone explain the physics behind the fact that creating a loop doubles the strength of a single strand? Never quite understood that one.


the easiest way to picture it is you're pulling on two strands, not one. thus, twice the strength (assuming no knot).

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By Jeff J
From Bozeman
Apr 30, 2012
Allen Corneau wrote:
I personally use the BW Titan slings (nice compromise of strength/weight/durability) in three sizes: 12", 24", and 48".


Yep, same here, I really like the BW titan runners. REI has them for a few dollars. cheap and strong I believe 27 kn or so.

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By Leeroy
Apr 30, 2012
John Wilder wrote:
This is so wrong, I don't even know where to start. Yes, you do need a bartacker, and you also need to know how to use that bartacker correctly in order to sew a sling such that it will reach the 22kn strength. Who knows what your home-sewn slings will actually hold- that you're trusting your life to them is lunacy.



No. Not so wrong. I don't sew my own slings cause that's just silly considering the cost and convenience. However, just because something is hand sewn doesn't mean it's not sufficient. I've got all kinds of aid shit that I've personally hand stitched together.

My home made adjustable daisy that is nearly identical to my store bought yates is fairing better than the original article. It's stitched together with 80lb test kevlar fishing line. Took me about an hour. I've hung on it for days at this point. It's been subjected to massive amounts of abuse, ya know, aid climbing. It still works just fine. I don't need the UIAA to tell me that my sewing is sufficient.

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By iceman777
From Colorado Springs
May 1, 2012
0
Leeroy

Nice to see someone knows the real deal , good on ya man and ill bet yer aiders n such work just as good as the store bought stuff huh,

If anyone wants to roll there own just get your hands on a copy of the mountaineers handbook. lots n lots of useful info on how to sew your own, And on how to tie the "Beer Knott"

Oh yea NO NO NO you dont need a bartacker machine just some good strong thread and make a shitton of passes it works fine , hell truth be told on mine the webbing broke before the stiching when we did the pull test w my jeep grand cherokee so if it will hold my jeep ....well
you get the drift .

However I dont roll my own I buy mine there not that expensive ,considering you really dont need that many slings its prolly one of the cheapest expences you will have building your rack.

Ah yes to thoes of you neysayers let me state this " I suggest you do some reserch before letting your inexperienced mouth overload your ass!"
cheers

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By Boots Ylectric
From Roselle IL
May 31, 2012
Goofin on the Frogs Head Arch before I rap off.
alexdavis wrote:
Can someone explain the physics behind the fact that creating a loop doubles the strength of a single strand? Never quite understood that one.


Think load distribution. It's not doubling the strength but spreading the impact out thus lessening the impact hitting at one point.




I'm too new and inexperienced to say, but the thought of tied or home sewn slings makes me nervous. I'm perfectly happy just buying ones pre sewn, bar tacked, rated and tested to hold.

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