Best way to close the system

Hi Mountain Project Community,

Occasionally I come across articles that suggest tying a stopper knot at the end of the rope to close the system. Do you think that a regular figure 8 knot would be sufficient enough to close the system if its a yard or so from the end?

Happy Climbing,

Pieter
SmartRockClimbing.com

Depends on what device you are using to rap with.
If anyone still uses Figure 8 descenders, larger knots are a good idea. Same for carabiner raps.
With ATC's and other descenders, a figure 8 knot will stop you. I'd agree that there are better knots in general (e.g. double overhand)

+1 for the barrel knot. Whatever you do, cinch down your stopper knot. A loose or undressed knot can untie itself as you lower or rap to the end. Having your belayer tie in is another option

SmartRockClimbing wrote:Hi Mountain Project Community, Occasionally I come across articles that suggest tying a stopper knot at the end of the rope to close the system. Do you think that a regular figure 8 knot would be sufficient enough to close the system if its a yard or so from the end? Happy Climbing, Pieter SmartRockClimbing.com

At the risk of violating guideline #1, I find it kind of disturbing that someone who runs a 'learn how to climb' website is asking such a question. Also, judging by your video, you may want to brush up on your grapevine/fishermans.

To answer your question, yes it would be OK, even if less than a yard, but as others have said there are (IMHO) better alternatives.

Pieter,

1. If I know the rope is long enough, I don't bother to close the system

2. Usually, both of us will tie in, which is the best way to close the system

3. Any knot that won't pull through the device will work as a stopper knot.

Mike wrote: At the risk of violating guideline #1, I find it kind of disturbing that someone who runs a 'learn how to climb' website is asking such a question.

Agreed. Some days, I hate the internet. And yet, here I am.

Sailors use it all the time ... i would suggest leaving a good amount of tail and making sure that the knot is nice, neat and snug however ...

Sailing knots

schoolofsailing.net/sailing…

the double overhand stopper knot however is the "proper" way that folks usually get taught ... its the most "reliable" (well not really, but in the climbing world it is) and has been used in certain drop tests

remember that for a multipitch rappel situation you could take a theoretical FF1 on the stopper knot ... ie. you lose control at the top of the rappel and zip all the way down to the knot (in reality there may be some additional friction and/or smacking of ledges) ... in such a case the double overhand would be the one i would want IMO

;)

The best way to close the system is to send your loopers back in time and have them kill themsleves.

If you want it bomber tie the two ends of the rope together with an overhand.

Mike wrote: At the risk of violating guideline #1, I find it kind of disturbing that someone who runs a 'learn how to climb' website is asking such a question. Also, judging by your video, you may want to brush up on your grapevine/fishermans. To answer your question, yes it would be OK, even if less than a yard, but as others have said there are (IMHO) better alternatives.

Peter,

I appreciate that you are excited and want to share. This thread and your site illustrate that you are not qualified for that.

I watched a few of your videos and there is a lot you need to brush up on before even trying to instruct others. And then, even knowing a subject well doesn't mean you are able to teach it.

Regarding the double fisherman's knot, compare yours to this and hopefully see the difference.

To illustrate what I mean about teaching, take your own video on anchoring off of two bolts

You say to use locking carabiners, but don't mention locking the top two and never show locking them. They go from unlocked to locked when you cut to freeze frame and back around 2 minutes in. You talk about opposing the carabiners without explaining the goal, or that it is more than just having gates on opposite sides. When you do say to check that your carabiners are locked a minute later, you only show checking/locking the rope-end ones. Minor details, but if your goal is to instruct noobs being sloppy doesn't help.

I also looked at your 10 steps to epic climbing and get the same vibe. A lot of opinions with nothing to back them up. On training, you say pull ups are super helpful and indicate lifting heavy objects is important. You seem to think that bolts are all that differentiates sport and trad climbing. And do you really think that lead climbing only comes into play for longer climbs, or is that more sloppiness? ("If you are wanting to do some climbs that are longer than 100 feet, you will need to do what is called lead climbing.")

I wouldn't care so much, but you really seem to want to teach others and mention "tak[ing] out climbing groups from 5-15, introducing many to the sport". And you seem to want to make it a business; why else would you want business cards?

rging wrote:If you want it bomber tie the two ends of the rope together with an overhand.

be aware that this can twist the hell out of your ropes ... especially with some supple ropes that are prone to kinks, especially when new (you didnt uncoil them properly)

ive had to climb back up a pitch more than once when someone tied the rope ends together and the rope got so twisted/kinked that you couldnt pull it

is the OP a certified guide? ... at the very minimum does he have many years of climbing experience?

i see his MP says he leads 5.7 trad, 5.9 sport and TRs 5.10a ... perhaps that needs to be updated?

honestly if youre going to write a book that tell folk how to climb you should be able to back it up ...

theres a big difference between taking out a few friends ... and telling folk how to climb "safely" on an ebook/videos (not just saying "this is what i do", but rather "this is what you do")

;)

Wow everyone,

Thanks for the loads of responses. I didn't think that asking a simple question concerning your preference with closing a system would be so stimulating. It's great to know what everyone's preferences are.

To the experts out there, thanks for your feedback. I truly take the constructive input to heart, and I am no stranger to revising and updating content based upon the feedback that I receive. In particular, I invite people to join a list where they can give feedback to my content before it is released publicly. I'm more than willing to connect with you if your interested in helping with the editorial process.

Thanks for the comments.

Pieter

SmartRockClimbing wrote:Wow everyone, Thanks for the loads of responses. I didn't think that asking a simple question concerning your preference with closing a system would be so stimulating. It's great to know what everyone's preferences are. To the experts out there, thanks for your feedback. I truly take the constructive input to heart, and I am no stranger to revising and updating content based upon the feedback that I receive. In particular, I invite people to join a list where they can give feedback to my content before it is released publicly. I'm more than willing to connect with you if your interested in helping with the editorial process. Thanks for the comments. Pieter

This response has the veneer of sincerity but I don't think you are quite understanding the criticism in this thread. It's beyond the differences of opinions between experts but rather an important, unspoken law of this sport (and these forums) - do not overestimate your own knowledge and experience, and doubly so if you aspire to be a teacher.

+1 on the double fisherman's video... smartrockclimbing.com/how-t…

you tie it wrong and then even link to the right way to tie it at animatedknots. might want to fix that. anyone know if/how this would affect the knot?

bearbreeder wrote: be aware that this can twist the hell out of your ropes ...

no doubt it does, foolish advice to say the least

WTF did no one see the obvious underlying self promotion here. Bullshit post to blatantly advertise his business.

Pay for advertising or be honest about promoting your business, don't ask basic rock craft questions and then profess to be an expert on your web site link.

Wow. You really don't have the knowledge you are claiming to have. You posted a video on a simple knot and you are tying it wrong. This would merely be comical, except that beginners trying to learn have no way of knowing that you don't fully understand the subject you are teaching. It is irresponsible to portray yourself as an instructor or expert.

Get it right, or take it down.

And asking others who do have the knowledge to basically produce your content for you is not a good solution.

IMHO the "Figure Nine Knot" is the best for this purpose.

And please, please guys stop calling the "double/triple overhand" a "barrel knot".

"Barrel Knot" is another name for the "Blood Knot"- a fishing knot used to tie monofilament leaders.

We all need to stay on the same page or chaos results.

stay safe,
Don

Just wondering when the "10 easy steps to flying commercial aircraft" is coming out?

Been wanting to be a pilot for years, but the 1500 hours of required flight time has been holding me back...

This guy is an opportunist menace with no accreditation or knowledge, just trying to capitalize on climbing.

He does a disservice to our whole community and all his posts should be deleted before some unsuspecting beginner follows his bullshit advice and hurts himself.

Rolf R wrote:This guy is an opportunist menace with no accreditation or knowledge, just trying to capitalize on climbing. He does a disservice to our whole community and all his posts should be deleted before some unsuspecting beginner follows his bullshit advice and hurts himself.

its not that bad if you are a Darwinist.