Belaying the second off the anchor

In this thread it was suggested that belaying the second off the anchor was bad practice. This kind of surprised me so instead of hijacking that thread I started this one.

Personally, I thought this was an appropriate way to belay the second, mostly because it keeps you out of the system. Any thoughts?

I belay off the anchor most times I do multi pitch as long as it makes sense. What would be the problem with doing this?

I build one anchor for me and one for my second with a minimum of 4 pieces in each anchor. Each anchor is equalized with an ACR (you'll need three ACRs for a multipitch climb).

I tie into my anchor and then belay my second directly off of their anchor using an ATC Guide. I clip a GriGri to my harness and attach that to the brake side of the ATC Guide as a backup. (I think the Trango Cinch is lighter and would work the same way - something to think about for alpine climbs).

As my second cleans the pitch it is a simple process to take the slack out through the ATC Guide, then take the slack out with the Gri Gri and then I also tie backup knots approximately every 10-15 feet.

The nice thing about this system is that I can let go of the brake side of the rope (after wrapping it around my leg and tying an extra backup, of course) to read the guidebook or enter a waypoint into my GPS.

holy cow that's a lot of gear!!!

I think you could avoid the leg wrap if you incorporated a jumar or mini-t.

James Beissel wrote:I build one anchor for me and one for my second with a minimum of 4 pieces in each anchor. Each anchor is equalized with an ACR (you'll need three ACRs for a multipitch climb). I tie into my anchor and then belay my second directly off of their anchor using an ATC Guide. I clip a GriGri to my harness and attach that to the brake side of the ATC Guide as a backup. (I think the Trango Cinch is lighter and would work the same way - something to think about for alpine climbs). As my second cleans the pitch it is a simple process to take the slack out through the ATC Guide, then take the slack out with the Gri Gri and then I also tie backup knots approximately every 10-15 feet. The nice thing about this system is that I can let go of the brake side of the rope (after wrapping it around my leg and tying an extra backup, of course) to read the guidebook or enter a waypoint into my GPS.

Haha! You forgot the bolt gun though, sometimes four pieces per anchor is tough to find ... Post of the day for sure.

Bolt guns fall outside my ethic. If I can't climb the rock under my own power I'll have someone else climb it first and fix ropes.

Doesn't everyone do this?
"I also tie backup knots approximately every 10-15 feet."

Owen Darrow wrote:I belay off the anchor most times I do multi pitch as long as it makes sense. What would be the problem with doing this?

ANAM a couple years ago reported a very seasoned husband and wife in Yosemite, multi pitch route, who were belaying off a double set of belay anchors. Lead climber fell, blew one anchor, then the other, and they both died.

Pretty sure there's been other similar situations as well.

I'll do it if I have a BOMBER anchor, and, still only clip my lead climber into maybe one piece. I want to keep that point load down.

Edit to say, I guess, thinking about it, I never belay a lead climber directly from an anchor. Sometimes they clip into the anchor as a piece of their lead gear, but, I always belay them from my harness.

On some routes, I'll belay from my harness instead of clipping the climber into an anchor. I can be a fairly big shock absorber, especially on the type of anchor I might hastily construct on an alpine climb (on poor rock, etc). Still, I like to see that lead climber place a bomber piece as soon as practical off a belay stance. Then another. Then another...

Couple years ago, we were rallying up a multi pitch route in Red Rocks. Swinging leads. I think the route was Big Horn. Anyhoo, I lead the first pitch. My partner was feeling kinda cocky and in a hurry, so, wasn't placing much gear. A ways off the belay, she placed what looked like a very poor .5 camalot under a friable flake. She was not clipped into the anchor at all (pretty standard for us if we're building anchors in Red Rocks). Went up another gob of feet, maybe 40 or so, and, clipped a piece of tat just by habit on a loose crappy looking chockstone. Then, climbed up anchor 20 or so feet, when, stepping up, she broke a foot and hand hold at the same time. Whoosh. Mr (Ms. in this case) Toad's wild ride. Besides ducking the loose rock whistling past, my first thought was of that crappy cam. She almost fell onto the belay, probably a 50 footer with rope stretch. I'll be darned if that whitish old piece of tat she clipped on that crumbly chockstone held. She was fine, and, lead through, placing most of the rack (!). Had the sling broke, the cam wouldn't have slowed her down and she'd have fell well past the belay. Probably at least 150 foot fall. At least it was steep...

Made both of us think a bit. Get a bomber piece in off the belay. Then another.

Cheers.

Brian in SLC wrote: ANAM a couple years ago reported a very seasoned husband and wife in Yosemite, multi pitch route, who were belaying off a double set of belay anchors. Lead climber fell, blew one anchor, then the other, and they both died. Pretty sure there's been other similar situations as well. I'll do it if I have a BOMBER anchor, and, still only clip my lead climber into maybe one piece. I want to keep that point load down. Edit to say, I guess, thinking about it, I never belay a lead climber directly from an anchor.

Just for the sake of keeping things on track, the focus of this thread is belaying the second off the anchor. Lead belaying practices are a whole different subject.

JL

saxfiend wrote: Just for the sake of keeping things on track, the focus of this thread is belaying the second off the anchor. Lead belaying practices are a whole different subject. JL

Yeah, I think I just realized that. Ugh. Braindead.

I usually sling shot 'em from the anchor, if the anchor is solid.

If I'm belaying two ala the autoblock thing, then, yeah, from the anchor. But if its just me and a partner, I don't think I'd ever bother to rig an autoblock but just belay from my harness. Faster, easier for a change over on leads, yada yada.

Thanks! Back to your regularly scheduled programming...

James Beissel wrote:I build one anchor for me and one for my second with a minimum of 4 pieces in each anchor. Each anchor is equalized with an ACR (you'll need three ACRs for a multipitch climb). I tie into my anchor and then belay my second directly off of their anchor using an ATC Guide. I clip a GriGri to my harness and attach that to the brake side of the ATC Guide as a backup. (I think the Trango Cinch is lighter and would work the same way - something to think about for alpine climbs). As my second cleans the pitch it is a simple process to take the slack out through the ATC Guide, then take the slack out with the Gri Gri and then I also tie backup knots approximately every 10-15 feet. The nice thing about this system is that I can let go of the brake side of the rope (after wrapping it around my leg and tying an extra backup, of course) to read the guidebook or enter a waypoint into my GPS.

My head hurts now. Can I get a picture drawn in crayons detailing this?

James Beissel wrote:I build one anchor for me and one for my second with a minimum of 4 pieces in each anchor. Each anchor is equalized with an ACR (you'll need three ACRs for a multipitch climb). I tie into my anchor and then belay my second directly off of their anchor using an ATC Guide. I clip a GriGri to my harness and attach that to the brake side of the ATC Guide as a backup. (I think the Trango Cinch is lighter and would work the same way - something to think about for alpine climbs). As my second cleans the pitch it is a simple process to take the slack out through the ATC Guide, then take the slack out with the Gri Gri and then I also tie backup knots approximately every 10-15 feet. The nice thing about this system is that I can let go of the brake side of the rope (after wrapping it around my leg and tying an extra backup, of course) to read the guidebook or enter a waypoint into my GPS.

classic set up.

I swear to everything holy, Beissel; if I have to pull your friggin asses off a rock in the splatte in the middle of the night during a damn storm --- I AM KEEPING YOUR GEAR!

Mark Nelson wrote:I swear to everything holy, Beissel; if I have to pull your friggin asses off a rock in the splatte in the middle of the night during a damn storm --- I AM KEEPING YOUR GEAR!

oh, so you went ahead and got that SARRCO certificate?

Frosty Weller wrote:Doesn't everyone do this? "I also tie backup knots approximately every 10-15 feet."

Actually that seems kind of sketch to me since the backup knot could slip under a sufficiently high load. I prefer to tie through a 20 kg kettlebell then clip the loop back to the main line using 3 locking steel 'biners. A smaller kettlebell might work, but i worry about it pulling through the device. On the up side, the weight of the kettlebell also helps pull the rope through the ATC Guide if using large diameter ropes (we usually try to use 11.5mm doubles) or if the ropes are icy.

Only problem with this system is where to clip the two kettlebells while on lead. My gear loops are usually taken up with bivy gear - talking about 1-2 pitch routes here of course, otherwise I'd take more and just carry it all in a 90 liter leader's pack.

James Beissel wrote: oh, so you went ahead and got that SARRCO certificate?

Did a "g/f" come with that certificate as well? What are they selling on that site again? I'm confused.

Kevin Craig- "Actually that seems kind of sketch to me since the backup knot could slip under a sufficiently high load. I prefer to tie through a 20 kg kettlebell then clip the loop back to the main line using 3 locking steel 'biners. A smaller kettlebell might work, but i worry about it pulling through the device. On the up side, the weight of the kettlebell also helps pull the rope through the ATC Guide if using large diameter ropes (we usually try to use 11.5mm doubles) or if the ropes are icy.

Only problem with this system is where to clip the two kettlebells while on lead. My gear loops are usually taken up with bivy gear - talking about 1-2 pitch routes here of course, otherwise I'd take more and just carry it all in a 90 liter leader's pack."

+1, Though a 20kg kettle ball is a little light. I prefer hauling a large grizzly bear or a small elephant and tying that in so rope doesn't pull through the atc guide. It actually accelerates your partner up and catapults them past the belay. Food for thought...

LMFAO. Well, Goatboy - you get what you ask for, I reckon. The context of the original post you cited is totally different from your question. Belaying a leader directly off a floor/ground anchor is something you see in shitty/college climbing walls. Most Climbers That Climb Outside are used to getting yanked a little - if the gf is using a grigri, make sure she holds the brake if it hits the first bolt. Belaying a second (or two) directly off the (bomber) anchor is standard practice with an autoblocking device (ATC guide). Redirecting the rope through your anchor while belaying off your harness doubles the force on your anchor - not a problem if your anchor is great, but why bother??? No matter how you belay, if your transitions are more than 1 min, ask yourself why. If your answer is anything other than I'm f--kin taking my time, enjoying the experience or i'm high/drunk/etc, PRACTICE. To Mr. Beissel, this is the funniest shit i've seen since Killis stopped posting. Thank you.

johnL wrote:All that makes sense James but what do you run the second rope through? Don't tell me you're belaying off a single rope, it wouldn't be prudent.

No no no, of course not, our moms have us on seperate topropes the whole time.

I don't think they make a big enough knife to cut through all the sarcasm in this thread!

On a serious note I usually always belay the second up directly off the anchor using an ATC guide.