Belaying the leader with a Munter off of the anchors

I've been taking a friend from Austria out climbing lately. He recently told me that the recommended method of belay in the teaching classes and books where he learned in the alps is the munter. Now, I've climbed with swiss climbers in the alps and I'm familiar with the leader using a munter to bring up the followers and think it actually works quite well.

What surprised me was that he said the recommended method for belaying the leader on multipitch was to use a munter directly off the anchor and not your harness. I asked him if he was sure if this was not some outdated relic technique from the days of hemp ropes, but he checked with a modern book he has from something like the CMC equivalent and said they recommend belaying the leader with a munter direct from the anchor. Has anyone ever seen this?

David Appelhans wrote:...and said they recommend belaying the leader with a munter direct from the anchor. Has anyone ever seen this?

Not seen it, but, I could understand doing that if you might need to escape a belay easily.

A munter is a good technique to know, but, using a belay device is easier to manage for most folks, methinks. Plus, I'm not a fan of belaying off an anchor for a lead climber. Anchor would need to be more bomber than I could ever imagine.

Caught one of the longest lead falls I've ever held on a munter. Skinny (8.1mm) rope too. No sweat.

I've climbed with a bunch of dutch people in Belgium, standard M.O. there was to belay off of the anchors with a munter. Got used to it after a bit.

Edit: There were also people in the group that used different methods.

Steve0 wrote:I've climbed with a bunch of dutch people in Belgium, standard M.O. there was to belay off of the anchors with a munter. Got used to it after a bit. Edit: There were also people in the group that used different methods.

I have found that bringing up a follower with the munter doesn't twist the rope, but rappelling does. How about when they belayed the leader off the anchor, did it twist the rope a lot? Did they try to bring the rope strands parallel for braking and catching a fall, or was the friction in the knot enough that just holding on to the brake end would catch a fall?

I almost always use a Munter to bring up my second. Havn't heard of using to belay the leader. As Brian said, I think the issue is that the force of a lead fall would be placed more or less directly on the anchor with this setup.

It has been common practice in some parts of Europe for quite a while. But remember that trad climbing as it is understood in this country, with anchors actually built by the climbing party, is uncommon in Europe (it is getting rarer here too). Most trad routes (and of course multipitch sport and "Plaisir" routes) have beefy fixed anchors that should be up to the worst-case scenario impacts.

Steve0 wrote:I've climbed with a bunch of dutch people in Belgium, standard M.O. there was to belay off of the anchors with a munter. Got used to it after a bit. Edit: There were also people in the group that used different methods.

Cool, Where did you climb? (Freyr?) I would bet most folks don't think of rock climbing when they think of Belgium, one of the "low countries". I also climbed with/was adopted for the day by some Dutch. (Yowsa, how time flies...it was over 10 yr ago) They were so much more fun than the staid Belgians (can you say "a country that needs a sense of humor"?)

Freyr was super cool BTW. But it's a sport climbing scene. I placed a stopper to cut down a run out there and their jaws were dropping. "Wha...?"

Brian in SLC wrote: Anchor would need to be more bomber than I could ever imagine.

Not just the anchor. Without the dynamic quality of a human body in the belay chain, a significantly higher impact force will hit that topmost piece, thereby increasing the probability that it or the rock around it will fail.

I've done it in a pinch with solid anchors after I dropped my belay device. My biggest issue with the munter is that it kinks the hell out of my rope. Still good to know how to do it.

I have used this method quite a few times when I want to belay someone fast and with minimal weight. I do prefer using my ATC Guide but it works just as good minus the auto lock.

HBL wrote:I've done it in a pinch with solid anchors after I dropped my belay device. My biggest issue with the munter is that it kinks the hell out of my rope. Still good to know how to do it.

Did you put the munter on the master point, or on your most multi-directional piece? Why not just put the munter on your harness and clip the rope through the anchor instead, why tie a munter directly on the anchor?

Owen Darrow wrote:I have used this method quite a few times when I want to belay someone fast and with minimal weight. I do prefer using my ATC Guide but it works just as good minus the auto lock.

Are you sure you read the OP right? You've belayed the leader by tying a munter directly on the anchor, not on your harness? Why?

Yep, pretty common around the German/Italian speaking areas especially on easier stuff, I even do it myself sometimes.

Jim

David Appelhans wrote: Did you put the munter on the master point, or on your most multi-directional piece? Why not just put the munter on your harness and clip the rope through the anchor instead, why tie a munter directly on the anchor? Are you sure you read the OP right? You've belayed the leader by tying a munter directly on the anchor, not on your harness? Why?

The 2nd quote wasn't mine. It was on multi directional point (SRENE) and it was just easier at the time to attach directly to anchor. I also had a directional to prevent upward pulling. As I am sure you know one cannot always set up a textbook anchor.

Yeah, the climbing was in Freyr, nice place! When I initially belayed the leader, the next pitch started with a traverse. I caught a fall and could do so without attempting to bring the strands parallel, but the central anchor point did sway in that direction. The rope didn't kink like you expect when rapping/lowering off of a munter, it handled much like it does when belaying a second. It's also annoying when you're managing rope with the leader and you're watching the hitch flip back and forth, making sure it's on the proper side. We also tried to belay off of the munter with double ropes and that made way more friction than was needed, it was tough to feed rope at times. It was cool to try I guess, but I prefer just using an ATC for belaying the leader.

Has anyone else tried the munter for belaying a leader off of the anchors?

David makes a good point above, that in any case it'd be easier to belay off of your harness if you needed to use a munter. I hadn't thought of that at the time, but I'll attribute that to following the guide/locals' orders.

Gunkiemike wrote:Freyr was super cool BTW. But it's a sport climbing scene. I placed a stopper to cut down a run out there and their jaws were dropping. "Wha...?"

That may be true, but if you're living in the Netherlands, you make due with what you have. The rock isn't super quality for holding falls, but on some routes you can cruise past bolts to find some decent cracks for pro.

The Italian and German alpine clubs have test facilities and testing programs we can't even imagine in this country. Have a look at

youtu.be/jZTZENu6jMc

youtu.be/tYZ4Hg92yXM

Just doesn't seem ideal to belay your leader direcly off the anchor. You'd have a SIGNIFICANT upward force on the anchor in a leader fall situation so your anchor would want to have more than a single piece set for upward pull. I just can't imagine any reason why this would be better than using a guide/reverso off the anchor for seconds and the switched to your harness for the lead.

Climb Safe
John

Here's my 3rd hand take: I ran into a mountain guide up in the Waddington Range (BC) last summer who was advocating belaying the leader off the anchors. He told me that there is significant research showing that most people just can't hold a big multipitch lead fall (greater than factor 1) onto their harness. Your body is yanked around too violently, and the shock can easily cause you to loose control completely.

I've never done it myself, but this rationale makes sense to me. Especially in a guide/client partnership where the guide may trust the anchors he has built more than the belay his client can provide.

Agree, the biggest issue is the upward force on the anchor in the case of a fall after the first piece is placed. I'd want to have at least two upward pieces plus the usual 2-3 downward pieces which is getting to be two pretty big anchors (one at each end of the rope) and a lot of gear to carry. Not as big a deal if one has bolted anchors as in much of Europe.

Another potential issue is the direction of the brake hand - to get the most braking force if Muentering the leader off the anchor, you'd lift your hand up (assuming you're hanging below the anchor). Though the Muenter also works in the "down" direction, up (parallel and next to the load strand) is better braking. This is a bit awkward and counter-intuitive to us poor colonials. :)

OReid wrote:He told me that there is significant research showing that most people just can't hold a big multipitch lead fall (greater than factor 1) onto their harness.

And yet, real world experience tells us people successfully do this all the time. Of course, this could also be an indication of how infrequent >factor 1 falls are in the real world too.