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Belaying a second directly off of anchors, anchor...
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By Billy Young
From Colorado Springs, CO
Dec 29, 2011
Me

I feel this is a pretty simple question with a pretty simple answer, I've just had a hard time finding an answer.

When belaying up a second; Do you need to build a whole separate anchor for the Reverso/ATC Guide or can you use the same one you are hanging on?

Just to clarify:

Let's say you are on a multi-pitch route and belaying up a second from a couple bomber anchor bolts. There is not much of a ledge to stand on so you will be hanging. You have a locking biner in each bolt and a sling equalized down to a sing point. You are anchored into that point. Should you build an entirely separate anchor with slings/biners for the Reverso/ATC Guide? or is it acceptable to rig the Reverso/ATC Guide onto the same anchor you are hanging on.

I know either way you are relying on the same anchor bolts, however my only opposition is the fact that you would be hanging (applying a lot of force) to the same sling that you're belaying with (possibly causing some sort of all-to mathematical triangular opposing force death ratio?).

I illustrated this for instance of what I am thinking in my head. The two BHKs just so that the auto block device will be more chest height so it will be easier to use, rather than it being attached directly to a sing point that you are also attached to as the belayer.

Suggestions? Comments? Likliness of serious injury?

Of course I will be practicing this on the ground long before I will put it to use up on the rocks.

Belaying a second anchor
Belaying a second anchor


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By john strand
From southern colo
Dec 29, 2011

I'm old but bear with me--- loose the cordalette, tie in with the rope and hang.
Belay the second through the anchor Off your harness.

This way you and the anchor absorb any forces from a fall


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By andrewc
Dec 29, 2011

If bolts are at the same level:
Clip a quick draw to each bolt.
Tie an overhand knot in the end of the rope tied to your harness. Clip it to one bolt in the top carabiner of the quickdraw.
Tie a clove hitch in the rope and clip it to the other bolt.
Done properly the rope will go in a "Y" to the two bolts.

Now clip the top locker on your reverso in guide mode to both carabiners on the end of the two quick draws.

Make sure that there aren't any large angles (greater than about 60 degrees) in either your rope or the two quickdraws.

And please learn to unlock and lower someone if you are going to use a reverso type device. This is not a trivial operation.


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By Frank K
From Bishop, CA
Dec 29, 2011

In an attempt to actually answer your question, yes, you can clip into the exact same point that you are belaying off of. no need to tie that second knot you show in your cord. Just make sure your belay device can move freely.


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By john strand
From southern colo
Dec 29, 2011

Ya ya- what andrewc said. Watch the angles for sure... Iv'e done it so many times it's hard to explain but easy to show


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By Billy Young
From Colorado Springs, CO
Dec 29, 2011
Me

Thanks very much for the advice everyone!

@Mostafa Yes I am using an autolock to bring up a second in this scenario.

The consensus seems to be that sharing the master point doesn't invoke any issues. I'd assume tying a separate knot (as in the illustration) would not make any difference either. (The only reason I would do that is if the Reverso was hanging too low for me to use it easily)

I'm practicing this setup in my bedroom (fully racked and everything). My concern was KISS, and I didn't want to continue practicing something that was just over complicating the setup. If I don't need to build two seperate anchors with slings and biners, then that simplifies things a lot. And obviously just using the rope simplifies things even more. I know how to setup the rope, and I just now realized that it basically answers my own question. If you don't build two separate anchors with the rope then I suppose you don't need to with a sling or cord or any other medium.

I know most people would just use the climbing rope to setup their anchor but I was curious for this method specifically. Certainly will use the Reverso properly for lowering.


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By Billy Young
From Colorado Springs, CO
Dec 29, 2011
Me

Thanks for the link to the video as well. I did not know this technique, using all clove hitches to setup a rope anchor.

@andrewc - Won't clipping a locker with the Reverso in guide mode into the two biners on the quick draws possibly tri-load the locker? Or will that be okay as long as the angles are not more than 60 degrees?


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By Larry S
Dec 29, 2011
The wife and I road-trippin on the Connie.

There are lots of ways to do this, Yes, you can do it off your cordolete master point, but make sure the belay device has room to move around. I'd probably build a separate anchor like you show (Or two draws, or some slings...), tie in myself with the rope to the master point, then on the side going to you're partner, just a few inches below the MP, tie an 8 on a bite, and belay them direct off that. Keeps the MP clean so you're partner can tie in when they get there. You can do the same thing without the cordolette by tying in to the two bolts using a double figure 8 ("bunny ears") or a bowline on a bite. Either way, make sure you hang low off the anchor, you want the belay device at shoulder height. If it's below that it's a PITA.


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By Billy Young
From Colorado Springs, CO
Jan 5, 2012
Me

Ok so I was practicing anchoring myself with the rope and I must say this is much easier.

I wanted to post this pic of my fastest way of doing it to make sure it all looked safe.

Tracing the rope:

Basically it is tied into my harness there at the figure 8 follow through. Goes up to a figure 8 on a bight and clipped into the locking biner on the right. Then it goes over to the left, equalizes with a clove hitch through the locker. From there it runs to the right again and clove hitches into the locker on the right. I equalized it and tied a figure 8 in the middle there, also hung the reverso on that loop.

Only thing I can see that might be unsafe would be tri loading the locker on the right. Should I put a separate locker into the bolt to avoid this?

Anchor1
Anchor1


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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Jan 5, 2012
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

Cordelette. Tie master point. Anchor yourself in the top shelf. Belay off the master point. Simple. Just make sure you clip into strands from both (or three or four or whatever the case may be)of your anchor points when anchoring to the top shelf. Easy to set up. Convenient to manage.


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By BigMoveMike
From prescott
Jan 5, 2012
Pente 5.11 Onsight

Just so you know the knots on the beners in your picture are girth hitches NOT clove hitches.


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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Jan 5, 2012
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

standard cordelette anchor
standard cordelette anchor


Your picture is not a typical way to anchor. Lots of knots and kind of a mess. No offense. Here's a pic to help illustrate a quick and easy way. For your purpose, imagine there are only two anchor points as opposed to three.

Above the knot (master point) is the top shelf. You can either use a personal anchor, cow's tail, climbing rope, etc. to anchor in. Slide a locker through one strand of each piece of cord coming down from each anchor. I use the rope to clove hitch into that locker. The belay device will be clipped into the loop below the knot.

The two are also reversible. You can anchor into the loop, and belay from the top shelf.

It's as simple as attaching two biners to each bolt, plopping a piece of cord in, tying a fig 8 or overhand to create a master point and voila- ready to anchor in a set your belay device. Hope this helps.


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By Billy Young
From Colorado Springs, CO
Jan 5, 2012
Me

Good call. It is a girth hitch.

Where were you guys when I first posted this thread? I was originally all about just using a separate sling/cordelette to make an equalized anchor and then using that to belay off the anchors. Everybody made it seem like just using the rope to build your anchor was way easier.

This setup is pretty complex looking, but its really easy/fast to setup. I am just wondering if it is safe.

I want to be well versed, I will likely just use an equalized sling most of the time but I want to be able to use the rope as well. But it looks like a mix between the two may be a good way to do it.


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By Curt Nelson
From Fort Collins, CO
Jan 5, 2012
There is a little ice in there!

Yeah, keep it simple and just use the cordelette or the web o lette from Mountain Tools. If you are swinging leads and want to just use the rope - use Eli's method as previously mentioned..
climbinglife.com/rock-anchoring-systems-videos-advanced/buil>>>


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By Paul Davidson
Jan 5, 2012

john strand wrote:
I'm old but bear with me--- loose the cordalette, tie in with the rope and hang. Belay the second through the anchor Off your harness. This way you and the anchor absorb any forces from a fall


+1

No offense, but if you have to be asking the question, stick to the basics. Equalize yourself into the anchor and let your body be part of the shock absorbtion system. I've caught a lot of falls over the years that have never even weighted the anchors (obviously not on hanging belays.)

I've seen more than a few folks belaying off anchors who had a bit of a lack of attention to detail. Putting yourself in the system guarantees you will be that much more attentive.


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By Larry S
Jan 5, 2012
The wife and I road-trippin on the Connie.

I'll see if I have a better picture of this when i get home, i know there's one in John Long's "More Anchors" book. This is an easy way to tie in to two bolts with minimal gear. You can do a direct or redirected belay thru the 8-on-a-bite that hangs out of the "bunny ears" knot. I usually just use a cordolette myself though. This should definitely be a tool in your quiver though.

Simplified version of "Bunny Ear" tie in.
Simplified version of "Bunny Ear" tie in.


see here: www.chockstone.org/TechTips/BunnyEars.htm

and here www.abc-of-rockclimbing.com/climbing-knots/doublefigure-eigh>>>


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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Jan 5, 2012
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

Belaying off your harness and bringing up a second through a redirect off the anchor will still weight the anchor in the event of a fall. Also, it's correct that some degree of force will be transferred to the belayer, but not all of it, nowhere near all of it if the rope is being redirected through the anchor.

I agree that if you're doing multipitch, setting three pieces and using the rope to create an anchor is the quickest and easiest and allows for swapping leads to be less of a cluster. There's also the benefit of carrying less with you because if you're anchoring in with the rope, then you don't need a cord. One less piece dangling from your harness. I still bring some with me though just in case, just not a long piece.

It's really a matter of what you prefer, and for some, they employ the way they learn. That's true in my case. I learned to build anchors using a cordelette, so that's the method I use most of the time, although I have anchored in with the rope occasionally. Whatever method you use, learn the proper way to do it, and the pros and cons of each, because each method has them.


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By Gregger Man
Jan 5, 2012
gg

muttonface - I took that photo on the 2nd or 3rd pitch of Mainliner in Lumpy. Didn't equalize the rightmost piece very well.

For gear anchors I prefer this now. Add a butterfly below for an ATC Guide master point, or clip a big 'biner through all three loops if you aren't concerned about cross loading:


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By Billy Young
From Colorado Springs, CO
Jan 5, 2012
Me

Thanks for all your input, I appreciate being able to post something online and get a lot of information from a lot of different people to help.

There is probably an infinite amount of ways to anchor and belay up a second. Using the rope, cordelette, and so on. Redirecting off the anchor, directly off the anchor, and so on. It seems to me that there is no best way. I suppose having a few different methods in your bag and trying them out on a climb is the probably the best way to determine which is best for yourself.

On a lot of the threads I have read through there seems to be a lot of back and forward chatter about belaying off the anchor vs. redirecting off the anchor. They both seem evenly safe to me. Is it just a matter of forces?

Thanks again everyone!


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By JPVallone
Jan 5, 2012

What do I do, All this advice. Ok should I use the cordelette or ditch the cordelette. Belay off the anchor, belay off my harness, or belay off my harness with a redirect. Do I use the rope to clip in or my pas,

Look at all the advice that was given for one simple question. This site is not the place to ask a simple question and this thread and it's answers are proof. After reading these answers, the OP has got to be confused out of his mind with all his options.

No you don't need two just one bombproof anchor will do with a solid redundant powerpoint, and if you want to create a shelf like your diagram suggests, that is a great way to stay organized at the belay, just make sure you are truly clipped into your material at the shelf.

I would also suggest you ditch the advice given in this thread including mine and read some books, and climb with some experienced folks, and or take some formal instruction as opposed to sorting through all the advice, photos, and diagrams on a site like this.


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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Jan 5, 2012
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

Gregger Man wrote:
muttonface - I took that photo on the 2nd or 3rd pitch of Mainliner in Lumpy.


I googled images and this one was on MesaRim gym's (SD CA) website. I hope they have your permission. I didn't ask for theirs. I suppose I could have cited my reference though. Either way, good pic; especially for showing a simple cordelette anchor.


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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Jan 5, 2012
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

Billy Young wrote:
There is probably an infinite amount of ways to anchor and belay up a second.


There are a lot but not an infinite amount. Simple and solid is the best.

Billy Young wrote:
It seems to me that there is no best way. I suppose having a few different methods in your bag and trying them out on a climb is the probably the best way to determine which is best for yourself.


The route, the rock, and your personal preference will all help to dictate which you use.

Billy Young wrote:
On a lot of the threads I have read through there seems to be a lot of back and forward chatter about belaying off the anchor vs. redirecting off the anchor. They both seem evenly safe to me. Is it just a matter of forces?


That all depends on how solid your anchor is, which in turn is determined by how good your placements are/how solid the rock is. Everything in climbing is a matter of forces. As a new leader, it would be a good idea to learn the fall factor equation if you haven't already. Be safe. Have fun. In that order.


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By Gregger Man
Jan 5, 2012
gg

muttonface wrote:
I googled images and this one was on MesaRim gym's (SD CA) website. I hope they have your permission. I didn't ask for theirs. I suppose I could have cited my reference though. Either way, good pic; especially for showing a simple cordelette anchor.


They never asked.
They must have lifted it from here
Thanks, I like that photo, too.


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By Buff Johnson
Jan 5, 2012
smiley face

Sweet, the guac-heads in cali like your pic! That's like omg, Kardashian-famous or something


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By Wayne
From Superior, CO
Jan 17, 2012

Gregger Man wrote:
For gear anchors I prefer this now. ...link to equalizing figure 8...


Just curious - how does that behave if a piece blows? I expect it would slip some, but wonder how fast it would extend. I can see the equalization would make the piece pulling less likely, but still curious if you know or tested the behavior.


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By Gregger Man
Jan 17, 2012
gg

Wayne wrote:
Just curious - how does that behave if a piece blows? I expect it would slip some, but wonder how fast it would extend. I can see the equalization would make the piece pulling less likely, but still curious if you know or tested the behavior.

It depends on how well you tighten the knot when you set it up initially.
If you wrench it down hard, this setup behaves more statically, like a cordelette. That might cause a piece to fail if the loops were also poorly equalized relative to the direction of the load.
If you leave the knot just 'moderately snug', a gradual load on the anchor tends to make all the loops slide until they share the load equally. There's no guarantee that would work efficiently in something as violent as a factor 2 fall, though.


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