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Belayers not anchoring themselves

Original Post
NYClimber · · New York · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 85

I see to be seeing a lot of belayers these days belaying on the ground not anchored to anything for the 1st picth of a climb or top roping and watching the leader fall and the belayer being yanked up off their feet 10 or more feet up in the air. Isn't this a bad practice should the belayer need to excape the belay and get help in the event of a emergency or injury?

While doing this does help absorb energy during a fall - is this really a safe way to belay? What the hell is the belayer going to do should he/she be 20 ft off the ground and need to ever get help?

kilonot · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 0

If you get yanked up in the air you can rap 10ft back to the ground.

If a TR fall pulls you airborne you should've been anchored.

There is no 'leader' on a top rope.

If your talking lead belay than, 'it depends'.

Cwaters · · Avondale AZ · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 250

The only time you really need to anchor while on belay is if its not a real safe belay plat form. as previously stated just repel back down if your yanked into the air. Not a big deal. When the belayer is yanked into the air it does cause a "soft landing". Its nice to do that to your climber if they are a few bolts up so they dont smack into the wall real hard but like I said only if they are far enough up.

Woodchuck ATC · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 3,280

Anchoring was the norm for all climbers in all situations. Sport climbing belay and the 'jump belay' seemed to have changed all that former good knowledge. I"m clueless why it suddenly became fashionable to only belay off the harness and not to an anchor.

Jeremy Hand · · Northern VA · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 100

skip the belay and climb ropeless. As a climber it gives you more motivation to not fall and as a belayer you are able to nap in a hammock rather than an awkward standing, seated position.

Jeremy Hand · · Northern VA · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 100

In all seriousness, wouldn't anchoring while elad belaying apply more stress to the rope and the belayers body during a whipper? I'm sure the catch would be terrible for the climber as well.

Woodchuck ATC · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 3,280
Jeremy Hand wrote:In all seriousness, wouldn't anchoring while elad belaying apply more stress to the rope and the belayers body during a whipper? I'm sure the catch would be terrible for the climber as well.
This seems to be logical if you are whipping on an old hemp rope. Isn't it the purpose of a dynamic rope to cushion the fall for safety, without any jumping belay, intentional rope slippage or any other non secured belay method? I don't know when it all changed over to not being a STOPPER catch. Guess it is another change of philosophy in climbing technique that I just ignored with experience.
Eric G. · · Saratoga Springs, NY · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 70

I once saw a small woman belaying a large man at Rumney. When he fell, he pulled her up to a low first bolt--her grigri was touching the bolt or draw.

Imagine if the bolt or rock or whatever had depressed the cam on the grigri!

That said, I only routinely anchor in the belayer when ice climbing. If the unthinkable happens and the leader falls, no need to drag the belayer into danger.

NYClimber · · New York · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 85

I agree with Chuck ATC...

Sport climbing changed climbing forever - and I'm not sure I see that as a good thing. Perhaps I am just old school - stuck in the Robbins and Chouinard era of things - but I don't get some belayer getting yanked 20 ft off their feet in the air or up against a rock wall as a good thing. That's why we use dynamic ropes vs. static ropes - to absorb the energy of falls - didn't think we really NEEDED our belayer to get yanks off their damn feet to absorb the energy from a fall. The previous poster is right - what happens if this belayer is a 100# female climing with a 175# male and gets yanked up 20 ft and smacked into a bolt or the first piece of pro? Not a great thing in my mind. Better to have her anchored to something on the ground and let the dynamic rope do it's job it was designed for instead.

Yeah maybe top roping generates less fall factors and energy than leader falls do - but I see people belaying like this for LEAD climbers as well - in some really difficult technical sport climbs - where I really don't see some 3/8" or 1/2" bolts getting ripped out from a leader fall with a anchored belayer from below...

Guess I'll just keep climbing my old fashioned trad techniques. To each is own I guess - I just don't want anyone belaying me like that!

paintrain · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 75

Anchoring a belayer on the ground is a bit old school unless the leader far outweighs his belayer. The principles for catching someone falling on a sport climb are no different than any other type of catch - the fact sport climbers generally fall a lot more should suggest you could learn something from their technique. Being more dynamic means you shockload the gear and your falling climber less (even more so with a dynamic rope). You are able to move around and be a more effective belayer as well as side step anything that might come down (better than taking it on the head even with a helmet). You can feed and take in slack more effectively by just stepping forward or back.

There are situations where anchoring is appropriate, but for cragging especially, it is not necessary or desired in most instances. Techniques change. I learned 20+ years ago to anchor in as well, but have adapted to newer techniques that make sense. Having suffered through those years of anchored belays taking leader falls, I prefer a dynamic unanchored belay as an anchored more static one can hurt and cause some wicked pendulum force.

PT

Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880

Anyone remember an unanchored Kevin Gonzales belaying Stewart Green at Shelf Road? That always an amazing sight. Yet Stewart is still with us.

Jeremy Hand · · Northern VA · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 100
Woodchuck ATC wrote: This seems to be logical if you are whipping on an old hemp rope. Isn't it the purpose of a dynamic rope to cushion the fall for safety, without any jumping belay, intentional rope slippage or any other non secured belay method? I don't know when it all changed over to not being a STOPPER catch. Guess it is another change of philosophy in climbing technique that I just ignored with experience.
It makes my rope last longer. I'm a poor hack that likes climbing. I jump belay. Lemon. Wet. Good.
NYClimber · · New York · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 85

Thanks jake for the info and sharing that story and pic.

That's a nasty compound fracture for sure and he's very lucky to 'walk' away from that kind of fracture with prob not having an permanent limp or loss of function, etc.

Wow! Sure makes sense all right!

Thanks for the info!

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945

When I lead I almost always require my belayer to use a grigri and perform dynamic belays. I can't think of anytime in the last 2-3 years I didn't ask for a dynamic belay except TR and leading slab and in these instances if there's a big weight discp like 100# belaying 200# ya def, anchor them in!

I've had my ankles or body smashed back into the wall way way way too many times from folks not jumping with the fall for the "soft catch".

Old Skool is fun but sometimes it's wacked and you gotta know when to look to the new skool for refined techniques.

Tom Caldwell · · Clemson, S.C. · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 3,623

Not being anchored in reduces the impact force on gear and the leader. I don't like hard catches on gear, potential for gear or rock failure. There are occasions when being anchored in is necessary as been mentioned, bad belay platform, potential decking, or keeping the belayer out of the path of falling objects. The decking part can be remedied by placing a piece of gear at ground level, like what you see on grit. Bruised heels on overhanging falls are no fun also.

JaredG · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 17

Jake, I only caught a glimpse of that photo before I scrolled away, but it looked pretty R-rated. Maybe you should have some kind of warning at the top of the post.

The incident you describe reminds me of a (much less bad) fall I took fairly low on a sport climb a few years ago. Due to a hard catch I bashed my knee into a slightly protruding hold, and couldn't walk normally for about 5 weeks. Soft catches are where it's at. That said, my belayer wasn't anchored, he was just holding tight. And as mentioned, it should generally be possible to anchor the belayer with slack in the system so you can get a mini-"jump belay" but still be attached to the bottom of the climb.

At many sport crags it's not really possible to anchor the belayer, because there's just no protection at the base.

MTN MIA · · Vail · Joined May 2006 · Points: 405

Clearly every situation is very different and a set rule fruitless.

I am 120# and consistently belay guys that are 200#. I am never anchored to the ground unless (1) there is a roof above me, or (2) I am at an unsafe stance. Both I and those I climb with prefer it that way.
There are so many stories of rockfall etc and being able to move around a bit at the belay can save your life. Personally I think having a good stance and being tentative is more important.

My2c

Derek M · · VA · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 100

I find most of the above responses mind-boggling. You would seriously do far better asking this question at rockclimbing.com.

The reason for a soft catch is to help the climber fall down, into air, rather than be whipped into the wall by a sudden increase in the rope's tautness. (You can see the horrifying picture of the guy's ankle above for the consequences of a hard catch.) The stretch of your rope is often not enough to achieve this. Anchoring for lead climbers is typically dangerous; don't do it.

Regarding large differences in partner weight, you should honestly just climb with someone closer to your weight so that you are not endangering them. During light person leads, the heavy person will have more difficulty pulling off a soft catch, which will make dangerous hard catches more likely. The light person will have no trouble softly catching the heavy person, but may not weigh enough to keep the heavy guy off the ground.

For top-roping it really makes no difference, but please don't anchor for lead climbs unless there is some reason that the belay station is unsafe (ie you could easily fall off, injuring yourself and potentially ripping the climbing off the wall).

Derek M · · VA · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 100
Jake Jones wrote: Why is that? The only one that I can see that disagrees with what you've said is Woodchuck and that's because he's from the same era as the OP- and Jeremy's first response, but it was a joke. Do you think it's a stupid question and you feel as though more people at RC.com ask stupid questions than here and that's why your recommending him there? Or do you feel as though more people there are knowledgeable than here, and he'll get a better response? The OP in this thread recently got back into climbing after having been gone a long while. When he left, it's very likely that the norm was anchoring in to belay- whether the climber was on lead or not. That's the general reason the answer to the question isn't obvious to him. I think MP is a great resource with knowledgeable people (most of the time)- not to mention being more user friendly and a much more usable resource than RC.com. If a climber of any experience level asks a question that seem basic to some, it should still receive an informed answer from those that do know and have experience. I like to think climbers that are experienced are willing to help out those with less experience to make it safer and more enjoyable for everyone when we're out there. If you've been out when a gnarly accident occurred next to you, it ruins shit for everyone. People get bummed or psyched out, you aid in the rescue or first aid, you help clean the gear on the route, etc. Most of the time it can be prevented, and it starts with someone that's not knowledgeable asking a question. With that being said, I agree with everything you said after your first two sentences.
My general impression of the thread was a slight lean towards anchoring. I thought that the question-asker would have been steered much more strongly, if also more rudely, away from anchoring at rc.com.
kellensfatfingers · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 10
This post violated Rule #1. It has been removed by Mountain Project.
Kirsten KDog · · Edgewater, CO · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 80

I would agree with the others that said it's a circumstantial issue. If it's a bad belay area, or there are ledges or whatever, I would probably anchor myself in. I've primarily done this trad climbing, not sport cragging. But otherwise I prefer NOT to be anchored down while lead or toprope belaying.

I've recently been climbing with someone double my size (I'm 110, he's probably 220ish---obviously not the best partner scenario, I know!) and we've discussed this at length. I'd rather go up 10 feet if he fell instead of being broken in half anchored down. It works the other way too---if I'm taking a lead fall I'd rather him jump up a little to soften the fall so that I'm once again not broken in half. But of course this is all circumstantial----it depends on the climb, the area, the partner, etc.....I just think it'd hurt a lot more being anchored down than being a little more dynamic with it.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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