Belay Question

So..let's say somebody is belaying a leader, who is already about 35 feet up. At first the belayer is fairly close to the wall, but then I guess he wants to be in the sun or his neck is tired or he's concerned that it looks like he's trying too hard to belay properly.

So he plugs in a piece about 4 feet up the wall, clips the lead rope into it, then walks straight back about 25 feet to casually hang out there and belay.

Am I missing some magical property of this first piece he plugged in that's gonna prevent him from being dragged into the wall or at the very least having to expend a lot of energy just to stay in place?

The belayer might be thinking that the lowest piece he placed will prevent outward pulls on the other pieces (when he walks away from the wall), which has some truth to it. But I can't see what would keep him from being pulled toward the wall and potentially losing control of the rope.

Doesn't sound like a good idea to me. I wouldn't want my belayer to do that. Close to the wall, is the right way.

I'll be interested in hearing what others think.

he could plug in a piece from standing height if he was going to run backwards taking up some slack to prevent a groundfall.

Can you get away with that on a sport route if the leader is up on the route multiple bolts in and your weight is pretty close...yeah.

Can you zipper/pull shit on a sketchy trad route cuz of that...yeah.

D.Buffum wrote:It could be a multidirectional piece to prevent zippering. Still seems like a bad idea in general.

it could be true if the belayer didnt back away! Its just gonna increase risk of zipper.

5.samadhi wrote:he could plug in a piece from standing height if he was going to run backwards taking up some slack to prevent a groundfall. Can you get away with that on a sport route if the leader is up on the route multiple bolts in and your weight is pretty close...yeah. Can you zipper/pull shit on a sketchy trad route cuz of that...yeah.

The thing is, by walking backwards, this guy completely eliminated any area to run backward into, once he was done walking backwards through the flat area, he was now in a position where he would have to run uphill through rocks.

Put a cam in, get a drink or talk on the phone.. I don't know if I would wanna look down and see my partner doing anything but belaying.

Hey look, those guys are simul climbing!

Christian wrote: The thing is, by walking backwards, this guy completely eliminated any area to run backward into, once he was done walking backwards through the flat area, he was now in a position where he would have to run uphill through rocks.

yeah guy sounds retarded/stoned. I was just suggesting what he might have been doing if he was smart with the low piece.

If it's being dragged into the wall that the belayer is concerned about, that piece 4 ft off the ground is completely counter productive. In my experience, the farther up you place the first piece the farther back your belayer can stand.
There's really no need to stand directly under the route after climber gets a ways off the ground, but it falls under the category of wearing belay gloves and using proper commands: possibly helpful in certain circumstances - sure, a hard and fast rule for everyone - no, likely to make it look like you're "trying too hard to belay properly" - definitely.

A good belayer doesn't need to look at the climber to belay.

Back when I was learning to trad climb by watching YouTube videos and reading HOWTO's on the Internet (not recommended methods) I got very lucky. My belayer was about 15' back from the wall, and off to the side. I was very lucky that my last piece of clipped gear was a bolt. I fell and every single piece zippered leaving me hanging 50' up on that single bolt. The first piece was a cam, btw, but not extended, just clipped direct. That incident was my eye opener to go seek out instructions on trad climbing by guides, classes, etc. My best advice now is to ignore YouTube and the Internet for instructions on such stuff.

John Farrell wrote:A good belayer doesn't need to look at the climber to belay.

Sort of true. It's not the end of the world to belay someone you can't see.

A perfect belayer can't give as good of a belay if he can't see the climber.

The consequences are minimal. Usually longer falls and multiple armloads of slack when the climber yells take.

John Farrell wrote:A good belayer doesn't need to look at the climber to belay.

Sort of. If you can see the climber, you are going to belay better. You can anticipate clips better. You can judge when it is appropriate to give a dynamic belay and when it is not. If you can't see the terrain the climber is on, you cannot make that judgment. This might not be much of an issue of the whole climb is steep and there is never any danger of hitting something. Obviously there are many times when seeing the climber is not an option and you need to belay the best you can. But they can see me, I want my belayer watching me. Even if you can give a great belay without watching me, it is not exactly confidence inspiring to look down and see your belayer watching everything else but you.

Christian wrote:So..let's say somebody is belaying a leader, who is already about 35 feet up.... So he plugs in a piece about 4 feet up the wall, clips the lead rope into it, then walks straight back about 25 feet to casually hang out there and belay.

I have done things like this an number of time, especially when my climber is on choss. If you install a low, multi-directional anchor it reduces the chance of second piece getting pulled out. So zippering would be less likely than if you have not installed the anchor and moved.

The bad thing is that it causes a lot of rope drag if you keep a tight belay( yikes!) and have to prevent this by increasing amount of rope to the climber. So when the climber falls there will be more rope out.

I usually don't get pulled towards the wall during a fall because of the increased drag that i have added to the system with the low anchor and because i sit while belaying from that far back. The increased in drag and low center of body weight allows me to easily control the fall.

If your belayer is actually worried about looking like he's trying too hard, find a new belayer. Even marginal changes in my safety factor are worth a lot more than how cool you look.

So far,I think Matt's is the only plausible legit reason for doing what they did. Though I wouldn't expect choss on that route, I do know the area and maybe they didn't.

I was kind of torn about saying something because, on the one hand, the leader was freaking out on 5.6 trad, on the other hand, the belayer seemed perfectly confident about placing his directional at the bottom and walking back.

I wanted to hang around and see how easy it would be to catch and/or lower his climber, but the leader was taking forever and I had to leave.

Christian wrote:the leader was freaking out on 5.6 trad[...] and the leader was taking forever and I had to leave.

yeah. I might have done the same thing. I don't always like standing under new climbers on their first few leads. Falling cams can be just as bad as choss.

What was the route? Was there a boulder or tree set back from the route, that they could have tied off before the leader left the ground? Need more info, but to me it sounds like the belayer had confidence in his cam placement, and probably the leader not falling. He probably stepped back to encourage/offer beta to the leader. Kinda hard to tell a gripped leader to use a hold, or place a piece in a crack you can't see.
If the leader was to fall on a low angle 5.6 the forces involved would likely be lower than expected. It's not perfect on paper, but it's using judgement to mitigate risk, and that my dudes, is the name of the game.
-Mackley

John Farrell wrote:A good belayer doesn't need to look at the climber to belay. Back when I was learning to trad climb by watching YouTube videos and reading HOWTO's on the Internet (not recommended methods) I got very lucky. My belayer was about 15' back from the wall, and off to the side. I was very lucky that my last piece of clipped gear was a bolt. I fell and every single piece zippered leaving me hanging 50' up on that single bolt. The first piece was a cam, btw, but not extended, just clipped direct. That incident was my eye opener to go seek out instructions on trad climbing by guides, classes, etc. My best advice now is to ignore YouTube and the Internet for instructions on such stuff.

Sorry for drift, but OMG, is this really a thing where it causes huge problems in for trad gear if belayer is in sub-optimal position?! I am very glad I stick to sport if this is the case.

D.Buffum wrote: It can be, if the first piece is not multidirectional. But frankly, you should be thinking about where the belayer stands on sport climbs too.

Yes, but all of the gear falling out is a little more serious than a hard catch!

I'm still new to climbing, but I think if you are belaying somebody you should stand and the bottom of the route. I climb with friends. The chance of a zipper, and therefore my friend's life, isn't worth a more comfortable position. Sure 99/100 times there isn't going to be an issue, all it takes is once, however. Looking up for 30 minutes is the price you pay for your time on the wall, pretty cheap price too.

That being said, the only time I put anything in low is when I am on a steep gully, at the base of a route on a 'scary' ledge, or when the first piece of pro is a stopper. And when I do, I am putting my personal anchor into it so that should the worst happen I can work from a stable and protected position to escape belay. This way I can have a full anchor set up, and tied off in a few moments.

You can get your few minutes of sunshine, but if something goes wrong you will have years of regret.

I'm still new to climbing, but I think if you are belaying somebody you should stand and the bottom of the route. I climb with friends. The chance of a zipper, and therefore my friend's life, isn't worth a more comfortable position. Sure 99/100 times there isn't going to be an issue, all it takes is once, however. Looking up for 30 minutes is the price you pay for your time on the wall, pretty cheap price too.

That being said, the only time I put anything in low is when I am on a steep gully, at the base of a route on a 'scary' ledge, or when the first piece of pro is a stopper. And when I do, I am putting my personal anchor into it so that should the worst happen I can work from a stable and protected position to escape belay. This way I can have a full anchor set up, and tied off in a few moments.

You can get your few minutes of sunshine, but if something goes wrong you will have years of regret.

Toughen up. Belaying is actually tedious work if done right. Relax shmelax. Pay attention to your leader. Get the most comfortable stance when you first start belaying and if neck or something else hurt later on just learn to shake it off of just deal with it. How long does your partner lead a pitch? It should not be hours and hours.