Belay loops & the discussion following TS's harness failure
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Perhaps, in light of the tragic consequences of a probably belay loop failure for one of the brightest stars in our climbing community, it would be better/more respectful to carry on a discussion about belay loops, etc., in a different forum. I would suggest that we move general discussions about this to away from the sad news to this forum. So, with all due respect, please consider moving your comments here. Thanks. |
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This post was originally a comment in ??
I completely agree with Steve White. The belay loop was designed because of convenience and now someone is dead because it failed. I never have and never will rely only on the belay loop. It adds one one more possible failure point to the system (this used to be taught as a dangerous practice before convenience began to rule the marketing world of climbing equipment. I would encourage all climbers to closely evaluate all of their gear for designs that are potentially unsafe. Two of my other pet peeves are the ATC and the super thin webbing people use today. These products work well in specific climbing environments but the risk can more than double if used in the wrong environment. |
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While Ron Olsen may be strictly correct in that "belay loops in good condition do NOT need to be backed up", Steve White & Mike1 are correct that you can backup your belay loop to avoid relying on one piece of equipment and avoid consequences of which we have just so sadly been informed. |
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I suppose if the belay loop can break during rappel, it could also break during a belay, so you should always clip the locker to the loop and your harness in both cases. This accident shocked me as well, I just bought a new harness a few months ago even though it seemed my 10 year old one "still looked fine". Now, into the trash it goes. |
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One thing to remember about "backin up" the belay loop, by running through the harness....is that this could potentially create a Triaxally loaded 'biner...which of course, is bad. |
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The belay loop was NOT designed for convenience. |
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Jean Goldsborough wrote:This post was originally a comment in ?? I would add to the lessons learned list to use a rappel back up all the time. A prussic probably would have saved him but those have fallen into disfavor because of the inconvenience. The more popular autoblock probably wouldn't have HELD him, but might have slowed him down enough for him to recover and perhaps grab the rope and do a leg wrap or something??? I am curious if anyone would know how effective an autoblock backup would be in such a case. I use it EVERY TIME I rap for a plethora of reasons. If it would help in a failure such as this I'd simply add it to the list!jEAN, RIGHT ON!! iF YOUVE EVER PLAYED WITH THE PRUSSIC, BY ACTUALLY LETTING THE DARN THING CATCH, YOULL KNOW ANOTHER ONE IS NEEDED, TO RELEASE THE ONE YER HANGING ON. iN OTHER WORDS , i DO USE THE PRUSSIC ON ALL RAPS, WITH A 6 FOOTER THATS WRAPPED AROUND THE HARNESS, THAT CAN BE USED AS AN ETRIER/LADDER, FOR THE RELEASE. |
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I always use a locking biner side by side with the belay loop. |
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Just curious, does anyone know if there's a particular reason manufacture's don't just install two belay loops for redundancy. I understand that it's supposed to be rock solid, and stronger than any other point, but it always feels weird having only a single point of failure on my harness. |
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For harnesses as well as all other climbing gear, the best advice is to follow the manufacturer's instructions (that little pamphlet in 6 languages and fine print that you toss out when you get home). |
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Shawn, I'd guess 2 loops just costs more. We double up so many other things in the systems. Good idea. In my limited experience, no harness will be impervious to wearing effects of sharp edges and friction. In particular, I've found desert sandstone, squeeze chimneys, offwidths, coarse granitic rock (e.g. Quartz Monzonite), mixed climbing, climbing with sharp screws hanging near my harness particularly rough on harnesses. Given the recent Dyneema incident, I won't girth hitch Dyneema on my harness or belay loops. Maybe better if you've got the $$, a new harness every Christmas? |
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I, too, recommend the Metolius Safe Tech harnesses because they are strengthened in areas that others are not. What other harness has fully load rated gear loops and haul loops? Also, I notice that my belay loop is actually wrapped twice before it is sewn through at a location that is three layers thick. I believe that at least two pieces of web would have to wear through in order for it to break. |
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Shawn Shannon wrote:Just curious, does anyone know if there's a particular reason manufacture's don't just install two belay loops for redundancy. I understand that it's supposed to be rock solid, and stronger than any other point, but it always feels weird having only a single point of failure on my harness.DID YOU DIG ouT FROM UNDER THE SNOW YET BRO? iM IN SLC, and warned my daughter (denver), that it was snowing here, and headed your way. In regards to the redundant stuff. You really gotta know when to fold it up, and shitcan the old junk. Most climbers are poor. So they attempt to get every ounce of air time out of their gear. I replace ropes/ harness every 2 years.( they're great for canyoneering or towing cars)Just having that stuff" under ultarviolet(sun) circumstances, begins the weakening process.Even if you never wore it or used the ropes. FIGURE IT THIS WAY.....WHATS YOU LIFE WORTH ? |
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Check out the Petzl site at en.petzl.com/petzl/SportCon… for a way to rig a rappel that eliminates using your leg loop for the autoblock and provides for redundancy. I further adapt this method by running the upper loop of the double length runner in the Petzl drawing through the biner that holds the belay device. Upon unclipping the upper loop, I clip this back into the belay loop. Thus, there are two full strength runner loops holding the belay device. I use a Bluewater thick runner rated at 28kn. |
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I saw on supertopo that Metolius does make a harness with two belay loops and that formerly Yates also made a harness with twoindependent loops. Yates quit making it though because they discovered that the second loop caused increased friction that wore the hard points of the harness out faster(where the belay loop connects the swami and leg loops). Apparently you can still special order a harness from Yates with the extra loop, but really I think the issue that caused the accident was the age/wear/care of the loop not the design. |
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I like the idea of the 6mm loop tied as a backup for the belay loop, although I've never done this. |
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Here's an excerpt from Petzl's Advice on Harness Use: |
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I recently rappelled with the carabiner/atc attached through the tie in point of my harness. The sharp edges at the bottom of the carabiner's gate (at the gate/body junction) acted as a cheese grater and almost wore through the tie in location on the top of the leg loops in 150 ft (I was "walking" down the cliff as I rappelled and the carabiner was a brand new petzl william). After that I will never put a carabiner through the tie in point again - there is a reason manufacturers recommend using the belay loop. And, belay loops are intrinsically backed up - i.e. they are wrapped two times and then stitched. |
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George Bell wrote:I suppose if the belay loop can break during rappel, it could also break during a belay, so you should always clip the locker to the loop and your harness in both cases. This accident shocked me as well, I just bought a new harness a few months ago even though it seemed my 10 year old one "still looked fine". Now, into the trash it goes. Ever since "cliffhanger", we have been convincing people that harnesses can't fail like at the start of that movie. Of course in that movie the harness is brand-new, and the buckles start unthreading. Mike, what is wrong with an ATC?George, My concern about the ATC is based on a feature of the design. It is purposely designed so you can give a soft catch. Some of the newer designs even have teeth so it will catch better. If you fall alot (sport climbing application) this does reduce the impact on all of your equipment. However for someone like me who almost exclusively trad climbs and falling is not as routine or when it does happen thier is more risk of a long fall I just want to be caught. I continue to use a small figure eight and wish I could get more of my partners to do so. I know some feel that the ATC does not kink the rope as much but I never had the problem when every one used firuge 8's and only see it now when one person uses a figure 8 and someone else uses an ATC type device. This is just my view point and it is meant only as this. Thanks for listening. |
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