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By matt davies
Mar 26, 2012
The Underground said it best:




Climb Howyalike

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By Finn the Human
From The Land of Ooo
Mar 26, 2012
Mathematical!
Last time I checked slings don't just randomly break.

My biggest concern with this would be the rope working its way out of the wiregate, but even that isn't too much of a concern if the belayer is being attentive. If you have a locker, use it. If you don't, consider getting one. I see no need to get bent out of shape over this anchor.

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By Dana Bartlett
From CT
Mar 26, 2012
Kevin Craig wrote:
And if the locker (that should be used at the master point) breaks, there is no anchor, and if the climber is belaying off his/her harness and the belay loop or harness breaks, there is not anchor, and if both pieces blow, there's no anchor. No system can be 100% safe and if you back everything up that could possibly (>3 sigma) break, you'll never get past P1. That said, I know that AMGA and ACMG guides are not happy with the sliding X - they have a higher duty of care however.


Read the post a little more carefully, read into the post a little less. Nothing in my comment suggests that people should have a level of paranoia about belay anchors that would prompt them to double up on every part of the system. I don't feel that way, and I don't use that attitude when I set up anchors. For some parts of a belay chain there is no need for redundancy: we all know that carabiners, belay loops, and harnesses never break. But to use a single sling like that when there is an alternative that is just as quick to set up, safer, and provides more options is stupid. You pick and choose, balancing safety, ease of use, speed, etc. No one needs to - or should - spend an hour at a stance engineering the perfect anchor: I don't, and all these anchor discussions are usualy pretty silly. But if you have a choice between two alternatives and one is clearly safer and and takes the same amount of time to use, why not?

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By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Mar 26, 2012
OTL
Stich wrote:
You really need to ask yourself, What Would Donini Do?


A single blue camalot would have sufficed just fine.


Has no one admonished the OP for not saying to the other party:
















YER GONNA DIE!!!

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By JoeP
From Littleton, CO
Mar 26, 2012
Jeff G. wrote:
I was climbing the other day and passed a party on a ledge.


How big was the ledge? What was the difficulty of the route? It doesn't sound like he was belaying the second of the anchor, so assuming he had a good stance and the climbing wasn't hard, I wouldn't worry.

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By bearbreeder
Mar 26, 2012
if there was a locker at the powerpoint id be fine with it if the pieces were big and solid

the lack of a locker is concerning (or opposed non lockers)

but im not climbing on it so who knows ..

on the single sling ... the trango alpine equalizer is basically a single sling if im not mistaken ... if it cuts or breaks at certain points yr still effed ... i would say that a sling with no knots would be stronger and less likely to break than one with knots ... there is of course no redundancy should the sling get cut

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By -sp
From East-Coast
Mar 26, 2012
Buenos Dias!
bearbreeder wrote:
if there was a locker at the powerpoint id be fine with it if the pieces were big and solid the lack of a locker is concerning (or opposed non lockers) but im not climbing on it so who knows .. on the single sling ... the trango alpine equalizer is basically a single sling if im not mistaken ... if it cuts or breaks at certain points yr still effed ... i would say that a sling with no knots would be stronger and less likely to break than one with knots ... there is of course no redundancy should the sling get cut


I tend to agree with this take. Prefer a locker and without some more info on the specific situation, it's hard to say more. But I will add that I've set up worse anchors when I was forced to (small gear and a juniper bush). Sometimes you just have to make do with what you have.

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By Kevin Craig
Mar 26, 2012
KC on Fields (medium).  Photo (c) Doug Shepherd
Dana wrote:
we all know that carabiners, belay loops, and harnesses never break. But to use a single sling like that when there is an alternative that is just as quick to set up, safer, and provides more options is stupid.


Well color me stupid then. What method are you referring to that's just as quick/safer/provides more options? Cordalette (fail/maybe/maybe)? A second sling (fail, maybe, fail)? Equalette (hah! on all counts)? Tied off legs (fail/probably not/fail)

Also, as has been observed, slings don't "just break" any more often than 'biners or belay loops - assuming they're inspected/replaced at an appropriate interval.

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By $t0& 960
From Colorado
Mar 27, 2012
s
Kevin Craig wrote:
Well color me stupid then. What method are you referring to that's just as quick/safer/provides more options? Cordalette (fail/maybe/maybe)? A second sling (fail, maybe, fail)? Equalette (hah! on all counts)? Tied off legs (fail/probably not/fail) Also, as has been observed, slings don't "just break" any more often than 'biners or belay loops - assuming they're inspected/replaced at an appropriate interval.

I disagree

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By coldfinger
Mar 27, 2012
Anchor
Anchor


First off, to the usual flip poser posters: you completely missed the obvious.

That being said, howdy all.

Here's the big problem: that SINGLE anchor/power point biner is loaded in THREE directions, which the sliding X may also subject to a cross load across the gate depending on angles and placements. That and the clove hitch moves the load AWAY from the spine (BAD #1--as biners are strongest when loaded along the spine) and toward the gate (BAD #2 as either it could open the gate and affect the knot and/or biners are weak when opened AND also subjected to multidirectional loading from the two blue sling strands).

If you must use a sliding x: please consider a 26 gram device that can be loaded on 3 axes and cannot be subject to open gate loading.

If not (either because you choose not to or don't know what that device is), please use a knot in the cordelette, sling, etc. to avoid loading your power point in THREE or more directions.

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By Mitch Musci
From Fort Collins, CO
Mar 27, 2012
I can't say I've ever climbed a multipitch route with a partner that didn't at least carry ONE extra locking carabiner (aside from their belay biner). Reason being that most competent climbers do (and should) understand the increased margin of safety when the gate of a carabiner can be locked. What better place to use a locker than the freakin powerpoint of your anchor where you clip yer damn life into.

The topic of redundancy has been beaten to death but it comes down to one simple description: wise vs. foolish. It may not be stupid to rely on a single piece of gear, but it is downright foolish. We all know that unexpected things happen, so the wise climber prepares by having a freakin backup. 'nuf said.

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By J. Albers
From Colorado
Mar 27, 2012
Bucky
Kevin Craig wrote:
Well color me stupid then. What method are you referring to that's just as quick/safer/provides more options? Cordalette (fail/maybe/maybe)? A second sling (fail, maybe, fail)? Equalette (hah! on all counts)? Tied off legs (fail/probably not/fail) Also, as has been observed, slings don't "just break" any more often than 'biners or belay loops - assuming they're inspected/replaced at an appropriate interval.


Dana made a very well reasoned statement with several good points and your response was to shout her down with that reply? Huh.

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By coldfinger
Mar 27, 2012
Taylor Ogden wrote:
Last time I checked slings don't just randomly break.


Better look twice.

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By mattm
From TX
Mar 27, 2012
Grande Grotto
coldfinger wrote:


Reading that it looks like a manufacturing defect. Good reminder to inspect ALL your gear, even stuff you just ripped a tag off.

Regarding the Anchor and the OP: (with the obvious caveat that this is speculation since we can't inspect said anchor)

- 2 SOLID Pieces providing a TR anchor on a LARGE ledge sounds fine. Low impact forces and, if the belayer is belaying off their harness, most of that load will be on them rather than the anchor. I've done many a hip belay on easy alpine routes with my butt wedged behind a large boulder with a "backup anchor" somewhere behind me. *A cam can be just as solid as a bolt given the right rock and placement so piece #1 could be a ok with me. *A PIN is hard to judge. Fixed pins in granite horizontals can be EASY to call "Truck". Blades in vertical, softer rock could be total sketch. Without seeing the SPECIFIC pin you can't make a call on the OP anchor.
- Can't say I'm a fan of the sliding X choice. I'd use it for sharing a load between to SMALL pieces, not my main and ONLY two anchor points. Sliding X equalization isn't perfect due to friction etc. As minimal as any shock loading might be with the rope included in the anchor, with ONLY TWO pieces, I wouldn't want ANY shock loading, however small.
- I'd want a locker or two opposed biners on the master point. Can't say I'm overly concerned with triaxial loading given the TR forces expected but it's something to consider.
- The Single sling does give me pause. While it's true that we rely on certain climbing systems to be "singularly strong" (Rope, Belay Loop etc) those items are KNOWN to be used in such non-redundant situations and are tested and designed accordingly (e.g. Belay loops are doubled loops of webbing, not single). Without that sling being tied off with an overhand knot, ANY failure of the sling and you're outta there (again, this is on a large ledge which plays a role in its assessment). As a general rule, I try to ALWAYS have two independent means of attachment to a belay. Usually it's just the rope clove hitched to a biner on one of the anchor points. It can also be a PAS, or numerous other systems but I avoid only being attached to the wall by ONE item where failure would be catastrophic. In the OP anchor, just extending the rope up to the cam and clove hitching it in again would be enough.

The idea of two anchor points and what to do with such is interesting. Climbing in the US and the way it's taught doesn't address "two point" anchors much at all. These scenarios seem more common in Europe. There's an interesting DAV (?) publication out there with some discussion of "Belay Slings" and their various uses. I'll find the link...
I'd be curious on others thoughts on some of what's discussed. (It's in German so google translate or some other system will be needed)

German Belay Document - PDF


Two Point Belay Examples
Two Point Belay Examples



Two Point Belay Setups
Two Point Belay Setups


Belay Sling Examples
Belay Sling Examples

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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Mar 27, 2012
El Chorro
DannyUncanny wrote:
There are people that climb (and do other things) by rules of "always do this", and there are people that assess every situation as it comes along. I think experience generally pushes most people towards the latter group.


This.

It is pointless to worry about someone elses setup unless it is obviously unsafe (this one wasn't or you wouldn't be asking us).

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By Leeroy
Mar 27, 2012
coldfinger wrote:
First off, to the usual flip poser posters: you completely missed the obvious. That being said, howdy all. Here's the big problem: that SINGLE anchor/power point biner is loaded in THREE directions, which the sliding X may also subject to a cross load across the gate depending on angles and placements. That and the clove hitch moves the load AWAY from the spine (BAD #1--as biners are strongest when loaded along the spine) and toward the gate (BAD #2 as either it could open the gate and affect the knot and/or biners are weak when opened AND also subjected to multidirectional loading from the two blue sling strands). If you must use a sliding x: please consider a 26 gram device that can be loaded on 3 axes and cannot be subject to open gate loading. If not (either because you choose not to or don't know what that device is), please use a knot in the cordelette, sling, etc. to avoid loading your power point in THREE or more directions.


wow. just wow. really amazing how you can get so many things wrong.

I love it when people who don't really understand some very basic concepts of anchor building try to spout off on the internet.

And despite what that dude wrote in his report there is obviously more going on. Even if it did break (which it sounds like it was never actually sewn together in the first place and he failed to inspect it before using it) there is NO reason he should have decked from the last bolt. His belayer dropped him. Plain and simple.

Try again coldfinger.

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By coldfinger
Mar 27, 2012
Good example of typical attitudes here, all I was pointing out is that slings can and do fail, ask Verm. Best to inspect them.

As for being "dropped" whatever.

Take a big fall on a much lighter belayer and yes you can expect he'll be moved around. That adds to fall distance.

As for rigging, yes that sole point biner IS being loaded away from the spine.

That's why rigging biners like a DMM Boa are so much heavier--they're designed to be loaded as can happen at a power point.

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By Leeroy
Mar 27, 2012
coldfinger wrote:
Good example of typical attitudes here,


Who are you to be chastising others for their "attitudes" around here? You're the one that had to blow your condescending load all over the thread.

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By coldfinger
Mar 27, 2012
As for "it's just a TR" I've heard here, had a fellow set up a belay with that attitude and I went 45 feet, and barely was caught.

He had a directional which blew when I fell and was doing the old sport 8 belay, so he ended up with a groove welded into his palm (or I'd be dead), and I ended up with a new partner.

All it takes is one thing to go wrong and you might load that TR anchor rather severely.

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By coldfinger
Mar 27, 2012
I'm a member of MP, nice language.

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By steitz
From midcoast, maine
Mar 27, 2012
I would have said something like -

"Hey, do you guys need a locker? I've got an extra one you can borrow"

and offered them one of the extra lockers I usually have.


As long as they weren't obviously endangering anyone that's probably all I would have done. Sure they could be safer, maybe they're just noobs but maybe it's how they like to roll.

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By Trevor V.
From Santa Barbara, Ca
Mar 27, 2012
Bouldering Garrapata Beach, CA
coldfinger

Tying the clove so that the load strand is closest to the spine is a load of crap. The difference it makes is negligible, look up the data. I agree the spine is strongest but the way the clove is tied dose not make a difference in the real world.

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By coldfinger
Mar 27, 2012
Trevor V. wrote:
coldfinger Tying the clove so that the load strand is closest to the spine is a load of crap. The difference it makes is negligible, look up the data. I agree the spine is strongest but the way the clove is tied dose not make a difference in the real world.


All I'm going to say is this:

Look again at the photo, the clove hitch is right up against the gate, a wiregate (famously easy to clip or unclip for that matter). One iota of biner rotation and its ON the gate, perhaps with the help of movement created by the sliding x system.

More importantly the clove is a knot THAT DEPENDS ON THE BINER TO STAY TIED!

Clove hitch bomber with a locker but not so much with an ultralight small wiregate.

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By Buff Johnson
Mar 28, 2012
smiley face
coldfinger wrote:
... Clove hitch bomber with a locker but not so much with an ultralight small wiregate.


This is kinda the direction I'm in; I would have liked a locker on the power point. Belaying for a seconding climber, I don't really have a problem with the overall anchor. I wasn't there leading and don't know the entire situation, but I'm not 'shocked' as long as the two placements are solid. Again, I would rather have a locker on the power point.

I generally go with Abb. 15 part b.

If I throw a 3rd (& possibly 4th) pro placement to distribute, I usually keep them tensionless away from the main two, or use cord between all. I don't really see these multi-point anchors in and of themselves giving me a problem, provided solid placements & good angles, even though they get beat into the ground through discussion.


What's more important to me is position on the route.

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By bwalt822
Mar 29, 2012
coldfinger wrote:
First off, to the usual flip poser posters: you completely missed the obvious. That being said, howdy all. Here's the big problem: that SINGLE anchor/power point biner is loaded in THREE directions, which the sliding X may also subject to a cross load across the gate depending on angles and placements. That and the clove hitch moves the load AWAY from the spine (BAD #1--as biners are strongest when loaded along the spine) and toward the gate (BAD #2 as either it could open the gate and affect the knot and/or biners are weak when opened AND also subjected to multidirectional loading from the two blue sling strands). If you must use a sliding x: please consider a 26 gram device that can be loaded on 3 axes and cannot be subject to open gate loading. If not (either because you choose not to or don't know what that device is), please use a knot in the cordelette, sling, etc. to avoid loading your power point in THREE or more directions.


A sliding X does not load a biner in 3 directions. The forces pulling outwards towards the anchor points are internal to the sling and cancel each other out. They never actually enter the biner.

FLAG


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