Login with Facebook
 ADVANCED
Belay accident with Trango Cinch
View Latest Posts in This Forum or All Forums
   Page 3 of 5.  <<First   <Prev   1  2  3  4  5   Next>   Last>>
Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
 
 
By Old Sag
Sep 17, 2013
John Wilder wrote:
the difference is all those thousands of climbers are actually grabbing the rope solidly with their brake hand and gently with their lead hand. grabbing the rope with your lead hand is a no-no during the actual fall.


I didn't grab it to with the intention to stop the fall with my bare hands. I mentioned this many times.

FLAG
By Syd
Sep 17, 2013
bearbreeder wrote:
the smart IMO though is probably the "best" assisted locking device for most single pitch climbers


What do you think of this ?


I'm starting to prefer my mega jul to my gri gri. The mega jul works on a similar principle to the smart. I've never had anything like the problems claimed in the video. Accidents like the one described are almost impossible with the mega jul because even if it fails to auto lock, it works like an ATC. It's also designed to be reversed to work exactly like an ATC ... and it's lighter than an ATC.

FLAG
By reboot
From Westminster, CO
Sep 17, 2013
John Wilder wrote:
grabbing the rope with your lead hand is a no-no during the actual fall.

Find that for me on the Petzl website...it's not preferred but it ain't a big no-no. The only no-no is to NOT grab the brake end of the rope during a fall. For any device other than the Cinch, nothing bad really happens if you grab the lead end. At most you may burn that hand a bit, but you are not going to drop the climber.

Since your lead hand needs to take in or feed slack, it's counter instinctive to have to release the hand arresting a fall.

FLAG
By Old Sag
Sep 17, 2013
rock_fencer wrote:
not being a dick kevin. just bringing up points for discussion and getting down to why we have so many failures with auto assisting belay devices. you posted up so you should expect responses. I'm not telling you to do anything just suggesting that assessing how we do things from time to time is beneficial to keeping everyone on their toes, avoiding complacency, and truly minimizing the risks we take. FWIW pro climbers do a lot of things that do not necessarily present safety at its finest.


No offense taken. I shared my experience to warn people about the Cinch. I have made my points and we disagree. It's fine.

FLAG
By bearbreeder
Sep 17, 2013
Syd wrote:
What do you think of this ? I'm starting to prefer my mega jul to my gri gri. The mega jul works on a similar principle to the smart. I've never had anything like the problems claimed in the video. Accidents like the one described are almost impossible with the mega jul because even if it fails to auto lock, it works like an ATC. It's also designed to be reversed to work exactly like an ATC ... and it's lighter than an ATC.


accidents are certainly possible with the smart

i know of one drop and an almost drop told to me by people i climb with ...

ANY assisted locking device can "fail" ... that said the smart is simpler and more intuitive to use

the most common way is to hold the cam/lever and then the climber falls ... even if the cam/lever closes the person can drop 30+ feet in an instant ... ive seen it

for the smart this can be avoided by ONLY opening the device when feeding the rope, and being trained for the brake hand to move INSTANTLY to grab the brake fully ... ie hand off the device totally and only on the rope ...

same with the gri gri

also for the smart lift the lever outwards, not upwards ....

what gets me is when i see people being trained to catch in a fall ... i dont understand why they dont teach em to bring BOTH HANDS ON THE BRAKE ...

this would stop a lot of belay accidents ...

;)

FLAG
By rock_fencer
From Columbia, SC
Sep 17, 2013
Myself placing a a blue/yellow offset MC to protect between Bolt 2/3 just post crux . <br /> <br />Picture credit goes to eric Singleton, and many thanks to Josh Bagget for the great belay.
bearbreeder wrote:
.... what gets me is when i see people being trained to catch in a fall ... i dont understand why they dont teach em to bring BOTH HANDS ON THE BRAKE ...


dynamic belays brah!

and i'm officially done for the day, i have an exam tomorrow. Been nice fellas

FLAG
By bearbreeder
Sep 17, 2013
rock_fencer wrote:
dynamic belays brah! and i'm officially done for the day, i have an exam tomorrow. Been nice fellas


Ive give plenty of dynamic belays where both hands went under the atc

In fact with a ligher person its safer to do that so that the top hand doesnt smack and get caught on the first biner if she goes flying up

Seen that happen too

;)

FLAG
By AOSR
From Wherever we park!
Sep 18, 2013
I owned a cinch. It wore out, quickly I might add. Once it wore out it began failing as is typical of the device. I switched to the GriGri2 and am still using it many years later with no issues.

If you want to use a device that wears out quickly causing it to fail, the cinch is the device for you!

FLAG
By Jon Zucco
From Denver, CO
Sep 18, 2013
yaak crack Red Rock Canyon, NV
>

"There goes my hat. OK, we're doing this with no hat. OK."

FLAG
By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Sep 18, 2013
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.
I checked my Cinch yesterday and it had as much wear as any that I've seen pictures of on the interweb. I just bought a brand new slickery 9.8 dry (good price, I don't climb wet stuff) and caught a couple decent falls with it with absolutely no slippage and no problem. I've had the device for about three years and I would estimate that it's caught at least 1,000 falls. So, with this wear, and with proper use, it catches decent .4 to .6 ff falls with no issue. And then one day it just won't? That's what alot of you are saying, right? Maybe it's just me, but I fail to see the logic in that, especially without those "real or significant statistics" that can't be found- aka actual evidence to substantiate a claim.

I should mention that I don't haul, top belay, TR solo, or lead solo with the device. I only use it to belay single pitch sport routes- for which it performs beautifully. I am aware of potential failure modes and the supposedly finicky nature of the device as well as the "sweet spot" (which is largely dependent upon the weight of the belayer) when lowering, and have never experienced any problems.


FLAG
By Jon Zucco
From Denver, CO
Sep 18, 2013
yaak crack Red Rock Canyon, NV
Jake Jones wrote:
o, with this wear, and with proper use, it catches decent .4 to .6 ff falls with no issue. And then one day it just won't? That's what alot of you are saying, right? Maybe it's just me, but I fail to see the logic in that, especially without those "real or significant statistics" that can't be found- aka actual evidence to substantiate a claim.


There's enough anecdotal evidence on this thread to make me uneasy on the idea of being belayed by a cinch. No matter how competent the belayer. I know from experience that at least a couple people here reporting slippage are good climbers, solid belayers, and have demonstrated excellent knowledge of rigging systems. So hearing that it failed on them is not encouraging.

It works until it doesn't. Then you're fucked. Might as well use a different device. Not worth the risk.

FLAG
By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Sep 18, 2013
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.
I agree with you Jon, and for the same premise. I guess I'm just not as uneasy about it because it has never failed me, and with little empirical evidence (disregarding claims such as the OP's that can't really be verified or recreated) to suggest that one day it will just happen out of nowhere.

I've belayed with a Smart, and it seemed funky- I can't really be more descriptive than that- but I guess every device to a new user is that way at first. Maybe I'll pick up a GriGri2 and see how I like it. I understand completely the stance that this shit doesn't just happen for no reason, and at least some percentage of these accounts probably hold water. Still though, seeing is believing, and it's been an excellent device for me, so I remain reluctant. It can't hurt to try other options, though, so I suppose your point is well taken.

I would be interested in hearing Mal Daly's take on all of this, although it has the potential to be a bit biased.

FLAG
By Jake D.
From Northeast
Sep 18, 2013
Mal no longer works for Trango so he isn't as active in discussions about their stuff as he used to be. I think his work with Paradox Sports is far more important.

Jake Jones wrote:
I agree with you Jon, and for the same premise. I guess I'm just not as uneasy about it because it has never failed me, and with little empirical evidence (disregarding claims such as the OP's that can't really be verified or recreated) to suggest that one day it will just happen out of nowhere. I've belayed with a Smart, and it seemed funky- I can't really be more descriptive than that- but I guess every device to a new user is that way at first. Maybe I'll pick up a GriGri2 and see how I like it. I understand completely the stance that this shit doesn't just happen for no reason, and at least some percentage of these accounts probably hold water. Still though, seeing is believing, and it's been an excellent device for me, so I remain reluctant. It can't hurt to try other options, though, so I suppose your point is well taken. I would be interested in hearing Mal Daly's take on all of this, although it has the potential to be a bit biased.

FLAG
By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Sep 18, 2013
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.
Gotcha. Thanks for the info.

FLAG
By Old Sag
Sep 19, 2013
John Wilder wrote:
the difference is all those thousands of climbers are actually grabbing the rope solidly with their brake hand and gently with their lead hand. grabbing the rope with your lead hand is a no-no during the actual fall.


Watching the Petzl instructional video again, it says around 1:47-2:00 mark, "that the GriGri should be used like any friction plate device, with one hand on the climber side of the rope, one hand on the braking side of the rope. This is the principle belay position and you must also adopt this belay position."

FLAG
By Old Sag
Sep 19, 2013
John Marsella wrote:
Do you brake with the climber side hand when using a tube style device? PS trango cinch belay device for sale


Since I haven't dropped anyone using a tube style device, the answer is no.

FLAG
By ELA
Feb 3, 2014
This is way too involved an issue to address simply, here. I will summarize:
1. Nothing in this report clearly reveals any shortcoming with the device, but rather the manner of inverting it in use according to one of the Trango pics. Think about it- you are used to one way, then suddenly INVERT it; is it not possible in action your reflexes
behaved contrary to the new orientation of the device? (also, slandering a device without specific references to accidents is irresponsible and only reveals your biases)
2. I and many friends used the earliest Cinches, typically for 3 months, and then just as we felt confident in them, we DROPPED someone!
3. Fortunately, indoors for me, no serious consequences.
4. I then re-examined every aspect, weakness of use, etc. until I was satisfied I had re-learned a completely different method of holding it that bypassed the inadvertent dangers, some of which I still see in the "official" manual.
5. In the 6-8yr.(?) since, as my primary belay device, I have never again failed to catch a fall, in control. Around 20-25,000 catches.
6. I just replaced mine with the newest version, and find NO difference in catching (ie no slippage), but notice an improved lowering control rate.
7. I do NOT trust beginners with either Gri Gris or Cinches, but agree Cinches are far trickier. This is not equivalent to saying they're inherently bad or dangerous. Bad technique with an ATC is a guaranteed drop as well.
8. Cinch Problem 1 = very position-sensitive, because with no spring, it can freely swivel and if you hold it BELOW the level of the harness, it can unweight the camming action - also, why it is so dangerous used as an ascender on a rope.
9. I cup it in my right hand, even or above the waist belay loop,
thumb over the rope just out from the entry/brake side; leader/exit opening is above/closer to waist.
.10. I am always gently lifting the Cinch, so tension is against the waist clip-in biner, and unless I am actively feeding out rope, my thumb is initiating the braking action at all times. Free feed is a matter of slightly rotating the cam side, with the 3rd and little fingers. 1/4 to 1/2 inch max. and the brake thumb never leaves position the entire time.
11. Position is Everything: IF the Cinch hangs too low, so the waist biner points horizontal or even down, the device is too open and rope friction is running perpendicular to the direction line that needs to load the camming action.
12. Cinch owners should play around with these position-critical aspects to learn how and when the device will and will not cam effectively.
13. They and Gri Gri users should also experiment, to see how totally useless both are, when yanked up against a fixed/directional biner so commonly used in hanging belays.
14. Thankfully, there are almost no unsafe devices today, in the sense they crack, shatter, fail entirely under normal anticipated usage. There are, however, unsafe techniques for using every single device sold. The only way climbers can be responsible is to thoroughly practice, learn the shortcomings/limitations of their hardware, and develop techniques that work around those limits.
15. Never use any device you are not comfortable and familiar with, and never adopt someone else's new/better method until you have tested and understood for yourself whether it measures up to your standards.

FLAG
By Josh Janes
Feb 4, 2014
Kevin,

You have burns on your left hand.

That's case in point that you were grabbing the climber side of the rope too hard.

No one cares what the pros are doing in the PETZL video.

The fact is, you've been caught "red handed" if you will.

Furthermore, you've admitted clearly to not "clamping down firmly with your brake hand" when the climber fell. That means you failed to belay properly.

Today I caught over a dozen lead falls from my diminutive female partner at the VRG - one was close to 40 feet. She actually even commented today that I'm a good belayer. You know what? Each time she fell I fucking clamped down my brake hand. I use the word "fucking" to emphasize how important this is. What device I was using was irrelevant. I also gave her a wonderfully soft dynamic catch each and every time.

It's not magic, but belaying is a skill that takes years of practice just like climbing.

As a side note, I don't let people belay me with a Cinch. But then I don't let amateurs belay me period. My ankles, and life, are too precious. And Kevin, until you admit that you fucked up, and stop blaming the cinch and throwing out red herrings about how ATC's work fine and about how the pros use their grigri's you're never going to improve as a belayer. Good luck and do your best not to injure or kill someone!

FLAG
By Jon H
From Boulder
Feb 4, 2014
At the matching crux
After 3 pages of conjecture and anecdotes, the only thing that's been clearly established is that the original poster used improper belay technique and dropped his climbing partner.

I still belay with my Cinch, catching hundreds of lead falls a year. Caught a monster 40 footer (with a 220 lbs climber!) at the Red this past season and the Cinch worked perfectly. Much like Jake Jones and his Cinch, mine also shows a bit of wear on the steel rotation pin, and yet, the device continues to work as intended.

FLAG
By Greg Maschi
From Phoenix ,Az
Feb 4, 2014
Any belay device used correctly will arrest a fall.Belay devices don't kill climbers , belayers do! Belaying is an underrrated climbing skill, sadly, and one I take great pride in attempting to perform with absolute perfection , I actually enjoy belaying a leader, I feel like as a belayer I am a very important part of a succesful ascent.

FLAG
By Old Sag
Feb 4, 2014
1. ELA said he dropped someone after 3 months of using the device and he still sees the dangerous misuses of the device printed in OFFICIAL manuals. How is a consumer suppose to know the correct or incorrect way to belay, and most only look closely at how it operates only AFTER and accident. He and his friends were lucky that no one was hurt, but what if someone had died? I don't see how Trango is not at least partially at fault for printing misinformation.

2. You can burn your hands even if you just clasp the rope, but do not cinch (ha) down on it. You can try it. I know my burns were superficial because I had gotten a proper rope burn before and it blistered up like HELL. But this time I was back to climbing in less than a week and no blisters formed.

3. How is your anecdote evidence better than mine? At least I bothered to raise awareness about the issue and let people have another source of information. And I'm not alone. Lots of people have come forward. I could have kept silent and judging from the feedback, maybe I should have. I also had 100 percent confidence and success rate with the Cinch for 2-3 years as my primary device.

4. We use the GriGri 2 now. It was hard to get used to and still does not feed slack as easily, but lives are worth the $80 that we paid for it. My Cinch is gathering dust somewhere. If the Cinch works for you, great. Keep using it. And I'm not being sarcastic; use what you like.

5. What is all this "blame the victim" mentality with climbers?

FLAG
By don'tchuffonme
Feb 4, 2014
urrr
ELA wrote:
I and many friends used the earliest Cinches, typically for 3 months, and then just as we felt confident in them, we DROPPED someone!


What? You and MANY friends have dropped people? Good god.

ELA wrote:
Cinch Problem 1 = very position-sensitive, because with no spring, it can freely swivel and if you hold it BELOW the level of the harness, it can unweight the camming action - also, why it is so dangerous used as an ascender on a rope.


Have you ever held a GriGri? You can freely move the rope through that too- both ways, until the cam is engaged. Any device will be "below the level of the harness" or level with the belay loop hanging by the biner when there is no tension on the rope- which there should not be until your climber falls, or unless you're feeding slack.

ELA wrote:
I cup it in my right hand, even or above the waist belay loop, thumb over the rope just out from the entry/brake side; leader/exit opening is above/closer to waist... I am always gently lifting the Cinch, so tension is against the waist clip-in biner, and unless I am actively feeding out rope, my thumb is initiating the braking action at all times.


This is incorrect. From the instructions that came with your Cinch:

"Do not hold the entire Cinch in your hand while
belaying or you could defeat the braking mechanism,
resulting in serious injury or death."


Maybe you should read your instruction booklet instead of going on the Internet and spraying some long ass multi-step instruction pamphlet that is wrong- after you've mentioned that you and many friends have dropped people.

KevinK wrote:
What is all this "blame the victim" mentality with climbers?


You fucked up. Plain and simple. You and your buddy ELA. This is why the device gets a bad reputation. Blame the victim? The victim was the climber. You are to blame. Pretty cut and dried.

FLAG
By chuffnugget
From Bolder, CO
Feb 4, 2014
I have a Cinch in a box with my Beta tapes. Damn progress!

FLAG
By Dustin Stephens
Feb 4, 2014
The Cinch did not lock because you were holding the rope firmly above the device, reducing load on the locking mechanism. Blame the Cinch all you want, but the same result would likely have happened with a GriGri, Sum, or any other "ASSISTED braking" device. Unfortunately, it doesn't really sound like you've learned much from your very lucky accident--classic example of why one must be exceedingly careful with who they choose to partner with. And above all, keep control of the brake strand and catch the fall with your brake hand no matter which device you use... even with the left hand error you made, you could have still caught the fall with your right hand more quickly if you had the brake strand under control.

FLAG
By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Feb 4, 2014
Stoked...
Dustin Stephens wrote:
but the same result would likely have happened with a GriGri...


No sorry you're wrong, it wouldn't have happened with a grigri.

FLAG


Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
Page 3 of 5.  <<First   <Prev   1  2  3  4  5   Next>   Last>>