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Jan 15, 2013
Me again!
thomas ellis wrote:
JQ "Timy doesn't make routes easier dildo" Now don't you looks the fool. How would you explain Pimpin Ain't Easy? The line went naturally (prob v13) but those pockets brought it down quite a notch. The blank sections at the Bat Cave...pretty sure they are easier now. Just sayin



No, not all of the routes he "made" are necessarily easier now. You let your personal feelings cloud your judgement. Just as likely, he filled in some pockets in the bat cave to make the routes harder the same way he did on Sinister Dane, Insider Trading, and tweak-fuck.

The irony is that some of these routes are awesome and some of them really suck.

Have you been there?
J Q
Joined Mar 11, 2012
48 points
Jan 15, 2013
Mint jullop
Did I say "all" JQ? thomas ellis
From abq
Joined Oct 12, 2009
1,652 points
Jan 15, 2013
It is amazing that this has been an ongoing drama for 20+ years. I know that because I remember standing at the base of the east face of the Manatee/Upper Mound boulder at U Mound, and watching as it was being bolted and glued by TF. The bolts were chopped long ago but the glue remains. I had just moved to NM. I had also just started climbing, and with no prior experience or history, it was obvious to me that this was wrong. I'm sure there are climbers reading this who weren't even born yet.

So why are we here 20+ years later? Obviously the individuals involved have a support group. No one person could get away with this solo, everyone needs a friend or two. So it's up to the new generation of climbers to bring NM into the 21st century.

Cody, thanks for speaking up. You have climbed all over the world, and are someone that the kids admire and listen to. BTW, nice job on A Date With Death (and the gear lead of Mainliner), just checked out the video on the BD site. That's what we should be talking about in NM, bold free ascents, hard redpoints and onsights, move the sport forward!
Mick S
Joined Sep 24, 2007
94 points
Jan 15, 2013
Well put Mick. We have seen all the "What would Jesus do," "what would Nietzsche do" bumper stickers. Maybe we should ask "what would John Duran do?" Now about that guidebook... Eric Whitbeck
Joined Mar 27, 2006
319 points
Jan 15, 2013
Grand Teton selfie
I think if people would post pictures as proof of the hack job it would bring more light to the debate. Jeremy Riesberg
From Boulder, CO
Joined Jun 3, 2012
22 points
Jan 15, 2013
I will now be supporting Timy Fairfield, I will seek out buying gear from his sponsors. Timy Fairfield is the type of guy I wish I would see around crags. Instead I see a bunch of brain washed little school boy's who are looking for an identity. I will also be writing his sponsors to let them know I will be buying his gear. thanks to every one for letting me know twattishness
Joined Jan 15, 2013
0 points
Jan 15, 2013
Me again!
What is amazing is that many people still don't understand that ethics are very much a personal choice. No two sets are the same. They can be defended by logic, reason, and persuasion; but blanket statements of righteousness do not help the discussion. Sorry to let you in on this, but your feelings do not matter. In fact, these statements based on emotion polarize the opposition and galvanize the debate.

I am all about debate but I already know that I will be talking to blank walls on both sides of the isles; one side claims to not care and the other side is so self righteous they believe their ethics are edicts handed down by a climbing god. Neither side is actually willing to talk about the issue genuinely. This debate was polarized by both these sides years ago and actual discussions do not exist, just a dogmatic espousal of righteousness.

That is why there is not a consensus.

The greatest mental feat is to hold two opposite ideologies in the mind at once.

This is not happening, and that is why this behavior will continue.



J Q
Joined Mar 11, 2012
48 points
Jan 15, 2013
Beaver Mountain
J Q wrote:
What is amazing is that many people still don't understand that ethics are very much a personal choice. No two sets are the same. They can be defended by logic, reason, and persuasion; but blanket statements of righteousness do not help the discussion. Sorry to let you in on this, but your feelings do not matter at all.


So much for your thoughtful post earlier J Q, this one went straight back to invective and also needed a spell check.

If style and ethics are personal choices, than folks should be free to comment on and critique any other person's approach. The crags belong to all of us and if you don't screw them up and modify the crap out of that shared resource then fine, go for it. If you are creating junkshows out of what equally belongs to everyone you should have some rationale and be ready to justify your actions. Hats off to Bill for being the only person actually willing to self-identify and say he has no problems explaining his approach to this development, even if he thinks this is not the place to do so.

The anonymity of the pro-modification posters seems to be mostly cowardice. If you are convinced of your opinions step up and be proud of them at least. What sucks the most about these threads is that anonymity allows folks to act in ways unlike the way they probably would be in person. If my feelings matter, and I think they matter more than yours ;), it is because they are the feelings of an actual person talking not some online simulacra. I also hate how stodgy I sound after I read back through this stuff, so touche for drawing me out into a position that seems so pure and wholesome when I totally enjoy being able to develop stuff without anyone telling me what to do or how to do it.

Abrazos y besos J Q,

W
Williampenner
From The 505
Joined Sep 30, 2006
559 points
 
Jan 15, 2013
Me again!
Williampenner wrote:
If style and ethics are personal choices, than folks should be free to comment on and critique any other person's approach. W



And you do, frequently! And I have already had this conversation with you so you do know mine, and we disagree on some and agree on others. I should have said: your feelings don't matter more than anyone else, even if you are drinking the TimTimhateraid. I know there is a ton of personal history driving most of the detractors to their feelings. Your consensuses of condemnation is not mutual and that is the problem. You can rant and you can rave, but the blanket statements are killing the conversation. Have you even been there?


I agree with Jeremy R. I want to see more pics. I also need to go there before I make an informed opinion so I will probably not post again until I do so. Attacking a mans livelihood should demand some proof and deserve some objectivity, don't you think?
J Q
Joined Mar 11, 2012
48 points
Jan 15, 2013
Once again, against my better judgement I'm adding further fuel to this thread. First off, I feel it was a bit over zealous to call an all out boycott, due to the fact that TF has never operated with true honesty. As far as I know, only one of his current sponsors has seen any actual evidence of what has taken place. The rest as far as I know, are in the dark, because we as a community, have never drawn enough attention to this issue. At this point in time, perhaps the first action we could take, would be a community petition, asking his sponsors for support,understanding and maybe even consequence for what has taken place. Perhaps this would be a more productive way of confronting this issue? The goal, as far as I'm concerned, is to stop this from happening again. Applying social pressure and economic sanction are the only viable avenues that I see. How does the community feel, does anyone else have any ideas?
This is a battle that I as an individual can't fight alone. Sure, I can send photos to all of his sponsors, maybe I can have a small impact, but if we act as a community we can have a significant impact, and maybe we can finally put an end to this chapter. It's up to the New Mexico climbing community to decide what they,(you)want.
If you don't mind litter at the base of your crags, chipping, dumb- downed routes covered with glue, spray paint, and closures, then stay silent. If you want a stop to this, then we need to band together and be proactive. I think this state still has so much potential when it comes to climbing, it would be a shame to see future cliffs suffer the fate that portions of the Bat Cave, Palomas, Socorro, Diablo etc., have suffered. Some people have mentioned, on this thread, that others have manufactured and chipped in this state. True, but my question to you is, who else is doing it now? New Mexico is one of the last bastions of this outdated approach; and as best I can tell, there's only one active crew left, the majority of us frown upon it, and yet the saga still continues.
Some of you have asked for photos, and again against my better judgment, I've attached some photos, so that you can judge for yourself. All the trash in the photos myself and others have done our best to haul out. However, there's still a lot to be done. A lot of the damage can be mitigated, however the excessive glue on some of the walls and the terraces are beyond me.

@djkyote aka Bill, I'm disappointed that you were involved in this, but yes, we can have a civil conversation whenever. You know how to reach me.
Trash left at the base of the cave.
Trash left at the base of the cave.


Cans of spray paint discarded at the crag
Cans of spray paint discarded at the crag


One of many glue holds...
One of many glue holds...


Glued quartz start hold...
Glued quartz start hold...


two buckets of glue left at the crag.
two buckets of glue left at the crag.


A coat hanger, attached to the wall at head height...
A coat hanger, attached to the wall at head height to hold Ipod speakers.


route name, scrawled with a sharpie.
route name, scrawled with a sharpie.


The TF crew's lock-box installed in the cave.
The TF crew's lock-box installed in the cave.


Abandoned table and chair.
Abandoned table and chair.


Abandoned, unused re-bar.
Abandoned, unused re-bar.


the terraces.
the terraces.
c roth
Joined Jan 8, 2013
80 points
Jan 16, 2013
Grand Teton selfie
C Roth is right, that does look really bad. I know I have been on routes that have had glue added to back up sketchy holds, but at least it was well done to the effect that you could not really notice. However I feel that building holds from glue is pretty low just like chipping or installing a coat hanger to put an iPod on... Jeremy Riesberg
From Boulder, CO
Joined Jun 3, 2012
22 points
Jan 16, 2013
Wow unbelievable.

That does look really bad, are you kidding me this is outrages.

These guys deserve to be prosecuted to the full extent. I can't believe the NM FS isn't doing something about this.

JQ in his second post says they did nothing illegal, BS if anything constitutes improvement without a permit this certainly does.

Climbing ethics of how someone establishes a new route are irrelevant. No matter what your doing leaving this kind of mess behind should be considered unacceptable.
Tim McCabe
Joined Oct 15, 2006
156 points
Administrator
Jan 16, 2013
Day Lily.
Those pictures are just proof that ego (fame, attention, etc) prevailed over the WHOLE. Those pictures looked as though they were taken at a construction site. I'm blown away by this and glad I have no connection personally to these people HOWEVER every time something negative like this happens every climber is affected because the public (landowners especially including the climbing community) groups us all together as CLIMBERS. we should stop this because CLIMBING as a whole is negatively affected and negative energy will come whether we want it to or not so why create it? The Stoned Master
From Pennsylvania
Joined Dec 5, 2012
3,586 points
Jan 16, 2013
on the trip
c roth wrote:
If you don't mind litter at the base of your crags, chipping, dumb- downed routes covered with glue, spray paint, and closures, then stay silent. If you want a stop to this, then we need to band together and be proactive.



So if people agree with you they should make themselves heard and and if they disagree with you they should stay silent? There are only two camps? It's either with you or against you? Than it's no wonder why there has not been a resolution and this conversation drags on.
Senior Hernandez
Joined Apr 5, 2011
27 points
Jan 16, 2013
shirtless wonder
Sadly our sport has a high impact on the environment especially when a new crag is being developed. Most climbers do not see this side of the sport as they will never be involved any route development.

Many years ago I went to the Asylum (Jacks Canyon) while it was being developed. It looked like large scale landscaping project, tools and trash were everywhere. Think there might have even been a trailer parked there permanently for period of time.

A few summers ago I was hiking in the Sandias on a day that Splinted and Screwed was being developed. Saw 2 - 3 guys on ropes, with haul bags hand drilling, trundling choss off the wall. Not exactly what I would call low impact considering it is a wilderness area and the activity was directly visible from one the most popular hiking trails in the Sandias.
bruno-cx
Joined Oct 22, 2009
8 points
Administrator
Jan 16, 2013
Day Lily.
Its ashame this conversation has to come up at all. Look at what being artificial has done; how much energy is being "wasted" on this thread alone (read previous posts some strong emotions are there for sure). We might as well end this post and all others on ethics because as history has shown: nothing uniform (no COMMUNAL concensus) will come out of this but bitching and bad attitudes.

Dilemma for climbing(ers): we all want to climb at the same cliff but we have different opionions on what is accecptable regarding every subject. It seems inevitable that the government (because of the increasing number of climbers and therefore the attention our sport gets) will have to step in and create laws to govern us OR we will have our own version of the NFL, NBA, etc soon enough.

I hope I'm wrong about the future BUT luckily there is one way to avoid my predictions: here, now, this community comes together and puts their effort towards a balanced (making a decision with humans, rock, vegetation, trails, existence, etc in mind) course of action.
The Stoned Master
From Pennsylvania
Joined Dec 5, 2012
3,586 points
 
Administrator
Jan 16, 2013
A Very Not Snowy Christmas...
whoa... those photos really are egregious. You could NEVER get away with that shit back here in the NE. Morgan Patterson
Joined Oct 13, 2009
8,415 points
Jan 16, 2013
Mint jullop
@David-
Got the Maple reference the first time. Repeating your "they did it!" mantra only makes you sound childish.

@Tonto-
I think if you read over Cody' responses you can tell he is not seeking an equalized resolution. After 20 yrs (thanks Mick) of grey area conversations, most face to face, the situation has gotten out of control. Instead of listening to many in the community (some of us friends) that less would be more, Timy has given nothing but his middle finger. Total disregard for others in his tribe.
So in the end Timy has not change but the tolerance level of the community has.

@Ted-
Switch back to porn
thomas ellis
From abq
Joined Oct 12, 2009
1,652 points
Jan 16, 2013
Mint jullop
You could give the kids a history lesson
"Just like disco, at one point people thought this was cool(some people)"
thomas ellis
From abq
Joined Oct 12, 2009
1,652 points
Jan 16, 2013
Mint jullop
And David, that pretty much rules out most of NM climbing now that some anon tool has chipped holds at Roy thomas ellis
From abq
Joined Oct 12, 2009
1,652 points
Jan 16, 2013
A grey fox skull wedged in a crack 100' up on a FA...
The Stoned Master wrote:
Dilemma for climbing(ers): we all want to climb at the same cliff but we have different opionions on what is accecptable regarding every subject.


10 f*#king GALLONS of glue, bolting coat hangers to the wall? How could that ever be considered a "grey area"? Sahalie and johny boy seem cool with it. Timy is never going to change, that seems obvious - maybe it's time for Glew Mexico to have an old fashioned tar & feathering party. You could use one of those fivers of glue instead of tar.
Glenn Schuler
From Monument, Co.
Joined Jun 24, 2006
964 points
Jan 16, 2013
Cody,
Thanks for posting the photos. Way back when the Umound got glued up I tried the whole boycotting thing, sent emails to sponsors, and all that, but since it was just me, there was no real impact. It may work if enough people try it.
Is there any way to get the glue off the rock? I would personally de-glue the Gluemound as it is a local bouldering area with great rock in a very cool setting, but it is totally glued beyond recognition. Can the boulders and walls be restored to their previous condition and then be redeveloped?
Eric Whitbeck
Joined Mar 27, 2006
319 points
Jan 16, 2013
Eric,
I'm not sure if there's a way to remove sika, maybe this is something we need to discuss with NM CRAG and the Access Fund. If anyone else out there has any info on removing sika, your input would be appreciated.

@david, I think you're missing the point, and comparing apples with oranges. The gripe isn't the terrace, the gripe is it was done without permission, and with no forward thinking thought. I suspect the terraces at Maple were done with permission, and based on the photos you shared, they were installed with care and aesthetic. There's not a cluster of unused abandoned re-bar in those photos, nor is there a bunch of exposed unsightly chicken wire, re-bar, and trash. The terraces alone, wouldn't get me up in arms, but the terraces combined with the rest of the junk show, paint a pretty sad picture of infinite regression, and a poor representation of our sport.

c roth
Joined Jan 8, 2013
80 points
Administrator
Jan 16, 2013
The Hammer
c roth wrote:
Eric, I'm not sure if there's a way to remove sika, maybe this is something we need to discuss with NM CRAG and the Access Fund. If anyone else out there has any info on removing sika, your input would be appreciated.



I would think if you dynamited the place it couldn't look any worse. Maybe some of the local miners could help.
M Sprague
From New England
Joined Nov 9, 2006
5,453 points
 
Administrator
Jan 16, 2013
A Very Not Snowy Christmas...
hammer and chisel = spitballs at a battleship? Morgan Patterson
Joined Oct 13, 2009
8,415 points


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