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By HoseBeats
Jan 7, 2013

This post was originally a comment in Bat Cave Area

This place is a great addition to New Mexican sport climbing and the potential for new routes is immense. The setting is beautiful and the south facing walls make for great winter climbing. The people who have put in the effort to bolt the walls outside of the Bat Cave have put in some tremendous effort to get things to where they are today. The trail work alone should get them a medal.

However, the people who bolted the Bat Cave proper have done the area and the New Mexican climbing community a disservice of the highest order. The amount of trash and junk left behind in the cave is appalling. Luckily the trash is easily removed with a few sweaty trips to the car. What will never be removed is the disgusting amount of glue smeared and caked over the walls of the Bat Cave. Nasty green and gray glue has been used to create holds, cover holds, and fashion lines where none existed before.
I understand subtle reinforcement of fragile holds that are necessary for certain routes to be climbable. What I do not understand is the wholesale application of glue as if it is a route setting tool. I saw massive patches of glue that were not close to bolted lines, holds sculpted out of glue, glue covering features to make the line harder, and attempts to hide the glue via spray painting (which only made it look worse). Those who engaged in this abomination should be condemned and ostracized by the climbing community; this type of development has no place in the modern climbing world.


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By Jeremy Aslaksen
From Albuquerque, NM
Jan 7, 2013

This post was originally a comment in Bat Cave Area

Nice job with the glue/drilling/wanking you dumb ****.

Let me guess???

JA


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By Jeremy Aslaksen
From Albuquerque, NM
Jan 7, 2013

This post was originally a comment in Bat Cave Area

Hey ****tard my name is Jeremy Aslaksen.

What's yours cutie?

Thought so.


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By HoseBeats
Jan 7, 2013

This post was originally a comment in Bat Cave Area

Wow, what a way to build a straw man. I said nothing about permadraws, the terraces, or Sinister Dane.

Discounting the pointless wailing contained in your post, your argument boils down to “sorry the glue burns your eyes. if you haven't noticed, as the rock gets steeper, it turns to flakey choss. if it is to be climbed it, needs glue. without it, you'd have moderates on the solid rock outside the cave” and “that sort of work takes tools, and some of it gets left.”

Both of those statements are garbage. In my post I admitted that the addition of glue is not always a bad thing. Sometimes it is necessary for holds that are fragile to begin with. However, the route manufacturing that went on in the Bat Cave is disgusting. It is not acceptable to create a route out of glue. Building holds out of glue is akin to chipping and drilling holds.

The climbing community has embraced the Leave No Trace and minimal impact ethic. If you are willing to pack in the tools required then you sure as hell should be willing to pack them out. Also, to pretend that only tools were left behind is disingenuous. Trash was left behind: protein powder, q-tips, clothing, food and food wrappers, chairs, a table, a huge metal lockbox, chickenwire, tarps, a big piece of fabric, etc...

Additionally, using the mine tailings and gear as an excuse to leave garbage behind is a joke. The miners leave trash so I can too!! Are you a 12 year old? Clean up after yourself.

Your inability to form a coherent argument coupled with the fact that you sound mighty butthurt makes me laugh and discount you as someone to take seriously.


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By Eric Whitbeck
Jan 7, 2013

This post was originally a comment in Bat Cave Area

Ooh this should be good for days of office entertainment.


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By Jeremy Aslaksen
From Albuquerque, NM
Jan 7, 2013

This post was originally a comment in Bat Cave Area

No doubt Eric. Just trying to help you get over the post-vacation blues.

;-)

J


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By bking7
Jan 8, 2013

This post was originally a comment in Bat Cave Area

One: This is a pretty sweet area with, as mentioned above, has incredible potential. The rock is incredibly featured with some very pretty quartzite veins running through it. Seconding Hosebeats the recent trail work by Lance and Sarah was phenomenal. The 5.10_? Lance just put up is perhaps the best of that grade I've ever climbed. Looking at projects by Lance and Cody proves the potential for beautiful, long, hard, pristine routes.

On the sticky subject above: I have only respect for the dedication involved in building the terraces. The perma-chains are, or course, very helpful. That said I have to agree that full on features of sika are incredibly unsightly, and fully unnecessary (ie the glufa). As people above have stated, some gluing to MAINTAIN key holds may very well be necessary on the "steeper flaky choss." However such maintenance measures can be done subtly.
Climbing, even at its most minimal, will leave some trace, (bolts, chains, cleaning, chalk) it is our responsibility as a community to minimize that impact. What I saw in the main cave regrettably did not even come close to attempting to embrace this ethic. Simply put, yes "the glue burned my eyes." I have seen remarks that prime areas such as rifle and maple are similar in the degree of trace left behind. Simply pointing to another area and saying 'they did it' does not make it remotely okay.
In short I fully wish to return and aid in the development of the area. Will I climb in the cave again? most likely not. I'll go up to hike the trash out though.


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By HoseBeats
Jan 8, 2013

This post was originally a comment in Bat Cave Area

Firstly, I'm anonymous because I don't want my name on the internet. Personally I think it is mildly insane that people post under their real names.

You seem to be completely avoiding the whole crux of my argument. The people responsible for the Bat Cave were using glue as a route manufacturing tool. They built hand holds and foot holds out of glue. Forget reinforcement, they “set” routes using glue as a medium. The climbing world had this discussion in the 90's and periodically has it again, only to confirm that it is an unacceptable practice.

Dragging Sinister Dane and Full Penetration into the argument is pointless. Not everyone agrees with how the development of the Dirt Wall went down, so to hold it up as a bastion of righteous gluing is silly. The Dirt Wall was developed while the climbing scene in New Mexico was in its infancy. Comparing the development of the Bat Cave to the Dirt Wall is comparing two different eras. It's not particularly helpful or illuminating.

“the terrace building had a lot to do with the materials you found”
What does qtips, protein powder, food waste, clothing, chairs, and a table have to do with terrace building? All of their garbage has been abandoned. From what I understand they left the area over a year ago with no intentions of coming back. If they show up and pack all their garbage out I'll be the first to admit that I was wrong.

“Been to maple, rifle, or the red? yeah, that's all 'leave no trace' rofl.”
Minimal impact is the goal. If I went to any of the areas you mentioned and dumped my garbage on the ground people would rightly be upset. You're defending an indefensible position.
As for the use of glue in those areas- sometimes it is necessary as I've stated previously. What I saw in the Bat Cave was not. There is a big difference between reinforcement and manufacturing.

The people responsible for the Bat Cave have a history of doing this exact thing over and over. It is time that the community as a whole told them to stop. People jumping to their defense only gives them a pass to do it again. It's not like they haven't heard these arguments before, it's that they just don't care.

As for Jonhy Q- I've bolted routes and developed lots and lots of boulder problems. If you want a tour of anything I've been involved in all you have to do is ask. I don't post them on the internet but I don't keep areas secret either.


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By c roth
Jan 8, 2013

This post was originally a comment in Bat Cave Area

Against my better judgement I'm entering the fray. Why? Because enough is enough, the buck has to stop somewhere. I've been watching this unsustainable approach ever since my early days of climbing. As a youth, I thought it was ok, I looked up to Mr. Fairfield. He was a rebel, he read add-busters, he said he was against the system. I thought in order to be a "professional climber", you had to be cutthroat, selfish and neurotic; and that it was ok to be self-serving and short-sighted, when it came to developing climbing. It took leaving New Mexico, getting exposure and experience climbing in foreign lands, and tutelage from true ambassadors of the sport; not self-proclaimed futurists and professional climbers, for me to realize his gasoline was goat piss.

The Woody, U-Mound, The Temple, Big Block, Diablo, Palomas, Major Wall, Dirt Wall. One could argue it was more en vogue and accepted, when he laid waste to these walls, but as I recall the community for the most part wasn't for it. The wiser individuals in the community, even back then, saw it for what it was; detriment to the sport. They realized this style lacked courage, it lacked fair means. It was mainly, my teenage generation of the time, with no point of reference that found it ok, merely due to the fact that he was sponsored, and we wanted to be sponsored.

Fast forward a decade, and we find this outdated nonsense still happening at the crag of the present and future, the Bat Cave. If you climbed in Albuquerque in the 90s, then you'll remember the Albuquerque Rock Gym, and it's owner Barry, aka "Barry the Goat Farmer". Barry was convinced that belay loops were dangerous, and had anyone who did a class with him cut them! I cant't help but be reminded of all the anti-bealy loopers, who defended Barry's outdated-ness, as I read through the comments of those who would defend Fairfield's approach to climbing. @Timy Fairfiled, @chufftard, and @all those who would defend this rotten approach: Congratulations, your not so fearless leader is the goat farmer of the 21st century, and you're the lost following the blind! YOU ARE NOT THE FUTURE, YOU ARE NOT THE PRESENT, YOU ARE THE PAST!!!

In the same way that the Assads, Mugabes and Jong Ils of the world hold on by a small thread, so too do you. Sadly, you picked a portion of the Bat Cave to carry out your last policy of tyranny. At least, I sincerely hope it's your last, I hope our local community sees Fairfield, and his "crew's" work for what it is. Pathetic. If there has ever been a time to say enough is enough I believe now is the time.

THE BAT CAVE IS NOT A CHOSS PILE. It's a cliff that would be considered a gem, and a resource, worth developing sustain-ably regardless of what continent it was on. @chufftard, I've bolted an extension out the steep, glue free. It angers me that I have to access it via your crew's unnecessary glue. In fact, I don't think "the crew" even bolted my access line. As I understand it, you took the liberty of spreading glue on routes others bolted, without their permission; just like the way Fairfield has clandestinely chipped other's routes when he has been unable to do them.

Once again, @chufftard, after your crew ran around like baboons in an orchard, spraying bolts and smearing glue, like there was no tomorrow, how many routes did you climb? How many chufftard? As best I can tell you climbed 3-5, none of which even go to the top of the wall, and none are harder than 13c, maybe 13d at best. How very futuristic.


@chufftard and his "crew", say what you will, but your means don't justify any ends. Your glue propoganda is just like your propaganda about needing firearms at the Bat Cave. What do you need protection from? People like myself who would criticize what you do? Would you seriously consider killing a minor for what you precieve to be a "choss pile"? I believe all of that to be a ploy to intimidate people like myself who refuse to own or carry a firearm, and a way of scaring people away, so that you could carry out your destruction undisturbed and unquestioned.

As for everyone else who's sick of the nonsense and manufacturing of New Mexico's crags lets take a stand. I so desperately want what Fairfield and his crew carried out at the Bat Cave, to be the last we ever see of it. I would give up every sponsorship I have, and all the income I derive from climbing, if it meant that this sort of thing would never happen again.

I'll say it now, I Cody Roth, refuse to endorse any company or buy any product that endorses Timy Fairfield. I encourage you to do the same, and I encourage you to write emails to these companies, informing them that you won't purchase from them, until he is removed from their team. Send them photos of The Bat Cave, Socorro, etc. Let them know what they are endorsing. For a list of companies, go to: timyfairfield.com The same goes for Fairfield's company Futurist, lets start a boycott, and lets let gyms and would be clients know that their money is going towards the destruction of New Mexico crags. I know that what I'm calling for is drastic, but we need to stand up and be counted. I believe that we are the 99%.










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By bking7
Jan 9, 2013

This post was originally a comment in Bat Cave Area

^^^^fully agree with the above. The area has amazing potential, and I'm super psyched to get in route shape for the extensions which are PRISTINE. Furthermore, as it seems that the vast majority of the community disagrees with the manufacturing process, and has been very vocal about the stopping of such practices to little avail, I fully endorse this boycott.
I realize that I'm new to the scene, and that my opinion carries very little weight, however I feel that there is an intrinsic set of ethics when it comes to development. Perhaps it's because I accidentally fell in with this so called "church of the climbing righteous." Or maybe, when it comes to the full on manufacturing of routes there is a clear right and wrong. The whole problem is that this sets a bad precedent for the up and coming younger generation. Do we really want them to point at this area and say, well they glued, so it's okay for me to glue in Roy? Using previous developments as an excuse for this practice is complete and utter bull and only underlines why it merits such outrage.


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By J Q
Jan 9, 2013
Me again!

This post was originally a comment in Bat Cave Area

Fairfield = Mugabes LOL!!!

Probably the best hyperbole on this site in weeks. After all, they do look so similar!


I still see the thunder dome as the best way to solve this "problem" because the idea of a "consensus" in the climbing community is about "realistic" as moving to Narnia and herding unicorns.

I can see what you are saying, but if someone doesn't care what you are saying, than why continue to scream louder and louder?

It makes NM look crazier than it really is, and that is hard to do.

Oh, admins, you know this should be moved to the forums where people regularly hurl insults and hyperbole, but it kinda likes staying here.


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By Williampenner
From The 505
Jan 9, 2013
Beaver Mountain

This post was originally a comment in Bat Cave Area

I've previously made similar statements to what Cody said and I agree with him now. Timy is not the only one causing problems, as often as not it is the group around him that thinks anything goes.

Folks who want to make these discussions about some ethical gray area that includes and condones the manufacturing, gluing, and chipping as equivalent to other modes of development can pretend they are justified. We all impact the places we go in some way, and to mitigate that, if possible, we would like to leave some kind of beneficial legacy--quality routes or boulder problems, good trails, whatever. Some of the development at the Bat Cave seems to lack any vision beyond near-term gratification of the egos of those involved, which in turn results in taking a huge crap on the future.

True visionaries see beyond our own collective limitations and show us new possibilities, even if very few of us may reach these new horizons right now. In contrast, anonymous cowards aren't trying to be part of anything and don't bring us anywhere.

It is the retrograde actions and development that should be derided and turned away from rather than the people. All of us as humans and climbers have youthful indiscretions to atone for but we have hopefully changed and matured, just as the approaches to climbing have changed.

Having the possibilty for futuristic climbing in New Mexico is a gift that we should not squander. Sometimes walking away from something, or getting better to meet it on its own terms, is the most courageous thing you can do.

William


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By bruno-cx
Jan 9, 2013
shirtless wonder

This post was originally a comment in Bat Cave Area

Oh wow, not another NM ethics debate about glue... the climbing gym must be crowded at this week.

All the people involved in this discussion know that others, aside from Tim's crew, have glued routes in this state.

Complaining about this on the internet is going to do about as much good as trying to convince a born again Christian that God does not exist.

Encouraging people to attack a persons lively hood because you don't agree with their ethics, is a rather serious accusation and possibly could have real legal consequences for the person who made those accusations (IANAL).

All this post has really achieved is to provide documentation that public land has been modified by the group the uses the land. I'm sure the BLM will be more than happy with this documentation if they ever need it.

You guys are real idiots for posting this pissing match in a public forum.


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By Eric Whitbeck
Jan 9, 2013

This post was originally a comment in Bat Cave Area

This is awesome. References to the Tomtourage, Mugabi, Ti To Co acronyms, and the Thunderdome. If there is going to be a comp between Ti To and Co, I think it should be one of those weird 80s shopping cart races where they run around a grocery store collecting items. To be fair, I think To and Co are actually on the same side, so they might sabotage Ti in any throwdown. I think the best thing that can come out of this is the plethora of great route names. Glufa is just an awesome name. I wonder if the gluers can actually craft routes that when seen from afar are images of themselves crafting the route looking at themselves..


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By bruno-cx
Jan 9, 2013
shirtless wonder

This post was originally a comment in Bat Cave Area

--- Invalid image id: 107957847 ---


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By David Sahalie
From on the road again
Jan 10, 2013

This post was originally a comment in Bat Cave Area

Pulled all my posts and went surfing for a few months, then I come back to this shitshow of boycotts, condemnation and Arab Spring.

Btw, Timmy wasn't sponsored by Madrock when the Gluicide went down, it was La Sportiva writing the checks.
So, add this link to your boycott list:
www.sportiva.com/about/aboutus/about-us/contact

In fact, here he is on their site:
www.sportiva.com/ambassadors/athletes/pro-climbing/timy-fair>>>


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By bking7
Jan 10, 2013

This post was originally a comment in Bat Cave Area

@ Eric, I agree. Midget proof can be called "Glu Skies" and "Gluicide" is pure unadulterated genius.


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By Williampenner
From The 505
Jan 10, 2013
Beaver Mountain

This post was originally a comment in Bat Cave Area

I had wanted this discussion to actually take a more civil tone, but the internet has its own ways. The Tomtourage has nothing to do with this discussion so cut that out Easy E and stop conflating this with the other junkshow of a dialog about developing in the foothills.

I will, however, toot my own horn and take credit for the name Glufa. I suggested this name while teasing one of the Bat Cave developers around a campfire and it is still one of my best comedic moments, likely never to be matched as I am usually not very funny despite repeated efforts.

W


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By Eric Whitbeck
Jan 10, 2013

This post was originally a comment in Bat Cave Area

W,
I actually did not bring up the Tomtourage. That was an anonymous poster who then pulled his post. I just love the name Tomtourage and don't often get to use it in a sentence with Mugabi and Thunderdome. As you know we are in complete agreement on this issue. My approach is to treat it as a joke because sadly there is not a thing anyone can do about it and the only real result in these online debates is that those of us who get bored at work can have a little entertainment. If the Tomtourage was developing the Batcave I would actually go. I still love Glufa and don't be so hard on yourself as a comedian. I laughed when you left our jackets at the belay on Monkeyfinger before our forced bivy. Props to Cody for making an effort at least.


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By Williampenner
From The 505
Jan 10, 2013
Beaver Mountain

This post was originally a comment in Bat Cave Area

My apologies Easy E--I did not see the anonymous poster that brought up the Tomtourage. Many more apologies for leaving those jackets on Monkeyfinger. I still shiver just thinking about that.

Keeping things funny does break up a work day I agree.

W


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By djkyote
Jan 11, 2013

This post was originally a comment in Bat Cave Area

I was involved in the gluing, bolting and terrace building. If anyone would like to have a civil discussion in an appropriate forum, I am happy to do so.

Bill.I.am


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By Eric Whitbeck
Jan 11, 2013

This post was originally a comment in Bat Cave Area

Nmcrag seems a fair forum.


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By Monomaniac
Administrator
From Morrison, CO
Jan 11, 2013
Pulling a small roof at 2/3 height on Mission Impossible.  Adam Sanders photo.

This post was originally a comment in Bat Cave Area

Cody,

Thanks for having the stones to state your opinion. It carries a hell of a lot more weight than the opinions of anonymous hecklers. FWIW you can add my name* to the list of people saddened by this (and I am by no means closed-minded about route development tactics).

I feel sorry for the next generation of NM climbers. They'll have to leave the state to find challenging routes (as many already have, including truly futuristic climbers like Cody and John).

PS...if you want to know my name its on the link on my personal page.


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By David Sahalie
From on the road again
Jan 12, 2013

This post was originally a comment in Bat Cave Area

"I feel sorry for the next generation of NM climbers. They'll have to leave the state to find challenging routes"

So true! I went to Maple this summer and climbed a bunch in the Pipedream cave. That place is a great example of how there can be challenging routes without glue or manufacturing!

But I really didn't like how the permadraws look. I think people should place their own gear and clean up after themselves.

Why is this thread still here and not in the NM/AZ forum? This is important stuff... people need to know!


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By southwesternclimber
Jan 14, 2013

This post was originally a comment in another bat thread

What is really going on down there and what does the community think?
Is the development acceptable, reputable, or a disaster?

- post moved from the other bat thread - an admin


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By J Q
Jan 14, 2013
Me again!

This post was originally a comment in the other bat thread

hinking Timy does what Timy does. Some of his routes I love. Some of the routes I want to destroy. I cannot condone what he has done at this cave but my love for several of his routes makes me hesitant to speak up. The people who hate Timy more than glue have always made themselves known, they are loud, and they continue today. The problem is that some of the detractors are actively projecting Timy's older routes, and some of them have glued routes in the past and have never tried to clean up there absolutely ugly mess. These hypocrites have little room to stand on, including myself. While I might hate one route I praise another. Is what he did in T or C against the modern trend?

Well, on the internet is sure it. But if you look at the most popular routes in CO and UT, many of them have glue, reinforcement, and even full on modification. Most of the people who climb on them don't have a clue. If they are so popular, and we live in a Democracy, than obviously more should be made.

Yet he does step over the line, again, and again, and again.

A good old trad dad once told me that the only possible working solution is the first ascent gets to dictate ethic. I argued for hours and learned something:

There is no community consensus. Anyone who thinks there is a community consensus is a fascist piece of merde. There isn't.


So while I continue to praise and hate the Tim Tim, I continue to use his routes. I bitch that he shouldn't of done this or that. But the solution is: get out there, develop routes the way you think they should be developed, and then send them. Don't wait for Tim Tim to find the next crag and whine again when Tim Tim does what Tim Tim does; put the work in yourself and have what you want.

What he did is not illegal.

He did not take a route that other people bolted.

People have known about that cave for years but there was no action. If you care, than do something, other than complain on the internet!

Go find me the new mega crag, this is NM! There is plenty of development left for those who actually care.

And for the rest, we have the internet and our whining to keep us comfy!


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